Am I a feminist now?

[vera16]

I have always defined myself as 'not a feminist'. However I am becoming increasingly frustrated with the pressure to accept gender idealogies which has spurred me into a bit of research on the subject. I have come to the following conclusions in my own mind:

• I class myself as a liberal person, believe in equality, and don't care how other people label themselves, but I do not want to or see the need to change how I identify. I am a woman and a mother and do not want to labelled otherwise.

• I don't believe self-ID should become law as I don't believe biological sex can be changed. Leading on to...

• Biological sex classifications is important in protecting women's safe spaces and also for creating fairness e.g. in sports. Leading on to...

• Women require safe spaces because they are not on an equal footing with men with regards to strength and tendancy towards physical aggression

• I don't want to tell people what my preferred pronouns are. To me the whole thing is an idealogy in the same was as religion, and not one I believe in, so I don't feel I should even be encouraged to participate. I work with many foreign colleagues and sometimes need to ask how I should refer to them. No problems so far.

And, perhaps more controversially, I myself do not always fit a standard family structure when it comes to medical records, form filling etc. But hey ho, I know it is difficult to account for everybody, so I just get on with it. I don't ask for the forms or the systems to be changed to make me feel more comfortable.

There must be many others like me? i.e. women who do not label themselves as feminist, or who just haven't really thought whether they are or not, but who would support the gender critical argument if the facts were put before them.

@0DAAT

The Lancet recently used the term 'bodies with vaginas'. You are 100000% wrong *@MishyJDI* - are you mistaken or disingenuous?

Considering Mishy's track record, I am confident it is the latter of your two options.

@ParmigianoReggiano

Just out of interest, why did you previously define yourself as not a feminist? It just means equality for women.

No, it means liberation for women.

Different concept, and a thousand times more valuable.

[quote vera16]**@AssassinatedBeauty OK I'll be very honest and say that I previously associated the word 'feminism' with a degree of negativity as a movement which put women's rights above those of others. Of course I know now that not to be the case (hides under the covers).

I also incorrectly assumed that my day to day life had not been affected by sex-based biases. Also not the case.[/quote]
Em nope, you were right the first time. Feminism puts issues that impact women and girls rights at the centre of it’s political movement.

But that’s ok. The same way the communist party doesn’t need to centre capitalism.

Feminism being pro women’s lib doesn’t means women who are feminists don’t care about other causes, it just means the political movement to fight for women’s lib doesn’t centre all the other causes women may care about. And that’s fine. In fact that’s necessary, because when the fight for women’s lib started including other causes it quickly becomes about centring men.

@vera16 It kind of sounds like you think being a feminist is all to do with how you feel about self ID and pronouns?

I watched Daughters of destiny recently and it really showed me just how far we have come in the west. Conditions for European women in the past would be intolerable and shocking to us now but even in the 80s things for women were very, very bad.

In my opinion though there is still a lot to do on the emancipation of women because practical considerations around childbirth and child rearing mean that often women’s earnings are compromised and in a lot of particularly abusive or dysfunctional relationships money = more power and more choices. Then there is the rise of “sex positivism” which in many instances is sexual abuse of women sold to them as empowering song many other modern campaigns where the battleground needs to start raging. The tolerance of rape and violence towards women which while the legislation is in place the culture and understanding lags many miles behind.

The sex positive debate, the men are subjected to violence from women too and the gender debates are holding all of these battles and many more at bay while we have to now argue what a woman is and that actually men have the capability of physical and sexual dominance over women before we can even start moving forward in tackling the issues. It is the most toxic tactics of diversion and distraction and gaslighting from fighting for women’s rights that I’ve seen in my lifetime. In my earlier years people were just happy to be sexists now they hide out their sexism and use gaslighting rather than overt tactics.

[quote RachelHasThoseInBurgundy]@vera16 It kind of sounds like you think being a feminist is all to do with how you feel about self ID and pronouns?[/quote]
It sounded like that might have been where she started, but then went on to think a bit about other women's needs. As feminists do.

Do you mean you didn't previously agree with equality for women? What an odd stance.

It’s been pointed out before on this board, that many women only realise the need for feminism when they have children and/or get older.
Young women are trying desperately to please men and be seen as cool, sexy etc. They take for granted the rights gained for them by previous generations of feminists, such as the vote, the right to own their own property, contraception, abortion, freedom from marital rape, the right to sign credit agreements and have mortgages, etc.
They think the war is over, the battle won.
It’s only after they’ve been scarred by years of groping, abuse, catcalling, being passed over for promotion, left with the lion’s share of the housework, childcare and grunt work in their marriages, etc, that they realise those nasty shouty feminists actually were right all along!

@BloodinGutters

feminism
/ˈfɛmɪnɪz(ə)m/

Learn to pronounce

noun
1 the advocacy of women's rights on the ground of the equality of the sexes.

When I was at university I didn't like the idea of a Womens Officer as I thought it was patronising and had connotations of Victorian ideas about women being unsuited to the rigours of study. I now work in a very male-dominated STEM environment and see how different that situation is to doing an Arts degree surrounded by other middle class girls.

It's very easy to dismiss isms until they affect you, then you can't unsee them.

[quote vera16]**@AssassinatedBeauty OK I'll be very honest and say that I previously associated the word 'feminism' with a degree of negativity as a movement which put women's rights above those of others. Of course I know now that not to be the case (hides under the covers).

I also incorrectly assumed that my day to day life had not been affected by sex-based biases. Also not the case.[/quote]
That's a pretty common assumption.

Some of teh accommodations and adjustments made to help women achieve equity (not quite the same as 'equality') are sometimes seen as 'putting women's rights above those of others'). Some fo the same arguments against any form of 'positive discrimination' are levelled at actions taken for the benefit of women. In one sense I suppose you could say they are correct in that - for example - quotas for political representatives are discriminating in favour of women on the basis of sex.

This is usually where attempts have been made to redress imbalance. For example, women having been traditionally so under represented in politics that steps were taken to help increase female representation.

It's okay for anyone who is cross about this, though.

'Gender' means that males are now able to be included in the category of women, so we don't have this positive discrimination anymore. We can anticipate most if not all women's rights and protections being dismantled and scrapped like this as genderism progresses.

sorry for typos, and I hope that didn't sound snippy, OP, I wasn't directing any snippiness at you!

Just a bit slightly gutted at the reversal and roll back of all of the hard fought for protections and rights of women.

@Babdoc

It’s been pointed out before on this board, that many women only realise the need for feminism when they have children and/or get older. Young women are trying desperately to please men and be seen as cool, sexy etc. They take for granted the rights gained for them by previous generations of feminists, such as the vote, the right to own their own property, contraception, abortion, freedom from marital rape, the right to sign credit agreements and have mortgages, etc. They think the war is over, the battle won. It’s only after they’ve been scarred by years of groping, abuse, catcalling, being passed over for promotion, left with the lion’s share of the housework, childcare and grunt work in their marriages, etc, that they realise those nasty shouty feminists actually were right all along!

I found it the other way around.

The ‘feminists’ I grew up around were all pretty misogynistic. Slating women who didn’t breastfeed babies and stay home with them, slating women who didn’t go out to work as a feminist example to their daughters, slating women who ‘needed’ a man, slated women who didn’t support all women’s choices as ‘you have to support women it’s feminism’. How it was sexist to ask for a man to do a smear, how feminism meant men should be midwives too. How it was anti feminist to be scared walking home on my own. How it was saying women are weak to want my boyfriend to walk me home when we finished work after dark. How my feelings of continually being on my own because of my single mothers working hours were an excuse to not return to work after having children, as if my experience of being a child counted for nothing. As if the time spent with my daughters counted for nothing.

And a whole bunch of men telling me what feminism is. Along with how periods are no excuse not to go to school (excessive heavy hemoraging) along with the it’s sexist to not give fathers equal rights and so on.

Obviously I grew up around a lot of shitty people. And a lot of misunderstanding of what feminism was as a political movement- even studying women’s studies modules at university there was still that confusion- the social construction of gender course literally taught female =sex, woman = gender.

But it was how feminism was all about ‘equality’ and being everything to all people what put me off. It didn’t tally with my experience of growing up a girl. I was abused because I was a girl. (As well as because my supposedly feminist mother enabled it- so a head fuck on feminism right there). My female biology massively impacted my health.

Understanding that feminism was always about women’s liberation made it click to me. I still prefer to say I am pro women’s lib rather than a feminist generally. But the word now makes sense to me in a way it didn’t when younger.

Lots of people assume feminists are nagging, angry women arguing about seemingly petty and trivial issues and so wish to distance themselves from the label.

But in actual fact it simply means you think women should have equal rights to men - not more not less, just the same.

When questioned, there’s not many people who openly disagree with that
And it may be interesting to consider why you may have felt distanced or felt negatively towards the term previously. Often these reasons are rooted in internalised misogyny.

The phrase 'women's liberation' makes less sense to me, because it doesn't specify liberation from what or whom. Whereas imo it's more obvious what equality means (in the context of social justice and treatment of groups within society).

I'd say I was an intersectional feminist. It's been a long road, I used to be anti-feminist.

Obviously I don't mean that the details and processes of creating equality are always obvious or simple, just that it's generally a bit more obvious what we mean by the word 'equality' than 'liberation'.

@lazylinguist

The phrase 'women's liberation' makes less sense to me, because it doesn't specify liberation from what or whom. Whereas imo it's more obvious what equality means (in the context of social justice and treatment of groups within society).

From men. From patriarchal dominance. From their power over us and entitlement to our bodies. From male violence against women and girls.

OP, I totally get it - when I was in my 20's I didn't think feminism was needed, and it felt like most of the major battles had been won. How wrong I was, I'm now late 30's and think it's needed more than ever.

I suppose that's why I patronisingly roll my eyes at the many young women blindly pushing the trans agenda, I feel like saying 'come back to me in 10 years when you've had a bit of life experience and see what you think then'. I read a great quote on Twitter in response to the young women criticising older women - 'We've been you, but you have yet to be us'.

I also agree that the word 'feminist' has very negative connotations and some women don't necessarily like to label themselves, even if their actions and belief are feminist to the core. Posie Parker for example doesn't like to call herself a feminist, and has had criticism from feminists in the past for her style of communication I guess.

Anyway, with everything going on these days, I reckon a whole new generation of rad fems are in the making .

Also, ignore Mishy, they are generally full of shite.

@lazylinguist

Obviously I don't mean that the details and processes of creating equality are always obvious or simple, just that it's generally a bit more obvious what we mean by the word 'equality' than 'liberation'.

I think to a lot of people it’s much more unclear to say equality. It’s why there’s tones of ‘well you women wanted equality’ comments followed by an echo chamber.

@Sleepyhungryfattyanddoc

Lots of people assume feminists are nagging, angry women arguing about seemingly petty and trivial issues and so wish to distance themselves from the label.

But in actual fact it simply means you think women should have equal rights to men - not more not less, just the same.

When questioned, there’s not many people who openly disagree with that
And it may be interesting to consider why you may have felt distanced or felt negatively towards the term previously. Often these reasons are rooted in internalised misogyny.

Yes, exactly. I think in particular younger women who want to be in line with their peer group and not seen as uncool, or rock the boat, and want to be just like the guys, not really understanding that they will be treated differently in the world whether they like it or not.

@MishyJDI

Language evolves over time to fit society's need and understanding of itself. I don't think anyone is seriously trying to remove terms such as women, men, etc but add to them with additional inclusive language. Which to my mind is a good thing.

Oh! First answer too!

Poppycock 😃

Seconding what everyone has said above. 'Feminism' to me, used to mean scary women in camps who were into bra burning. (Sorry 1st wave feminists, I know better now!!)

But now I unashamedly use the word Feminist. It puts people on notice that I won't be taking any sh*t.

@CreepingDeath - agree with every point you make