The Mess We're In - Video disappeared?

[TambourineofRighteousness]

Does anyone know why this weeks The Mess We're In has disappeared? I was part way through the live stream then the video switched to private and it's not on the channel.

Glinner did mention DP at one point and then said he shouldn't have mentioned his name, does anyone know if has just been taken down for editing purposes?

I did exactly the same! Yeah I think it’s probably being edited.

Yes, at the end Graham said that it would be taken down to edit out the real name of ‘man at bus stop’.

Thank you.

Haven't watched it yet, but did they say anything to acknowledge the shitshow that was the last episode with Blanchard?

I stopped watching it as it was supposed to be about the conference but it barely got a mention

I thought the episode with Dr Blanchard was interesting and informative, not a shitshow. We were lucky to have the long clinical knowledge and experience of Dr Blanchard.

Why do you think it was a shitshowm, @CreepingDeath ?

KaycePollard

Because they talked over and contradicted Helen a lot of the time, because at the end Blanchard basically blamed women for AGP , and talked about how he's 'tired of people blaming men and AGPs' .

Also because Arty was completely fawning over Blanchard, and trying to excuse AGP. Basically nowhere did they really acknowledge the impact this has on women.

Added to that they didn't probe or push back against things he said, and even though he was asked about whether porn was the cause of this he kept saying no it isn't. He wouldn't acknowledge the role sissy porn has played in exacerbating this whole issue. He also doesn't acknowledge the ingrained misogyny inherent in dressing as a caricature of a women, full of stereotypes.

Blanchard also basically admitted that his 'treatment' included sending these men out into women's spaces. Who gave him permission to do that? Why did he not care that women might not want these men in our spaces.

Overall it was a total disappointment. A bunch of men talking about this and failing to really admit the damage it does to women.

Karen from "You're Kidding Right' does a great takedown of this interview. She has previously interviewed a transwidow, and Arty has criticised her in the past for asking about the impact and affect this has on the wives of these men. Go figure.

I was hoping that they would address this, too. I'm such a big fan of the Mess, but that last smug comment of Blanchard, that AGPs and TRAs were the fault of women? That women must take some blame???? Wtf???

Helen did struggle to answer him, to be fair. She looked completely wrong-footwd and kind of shell-shocked at his assertion, and as it was right at the end of the show, she didn't have time to frame a considered response.

Yes, we know that there is an issue with young women backing up the TRAs. This needs investigation, presumably it's due to our ancestral sense of self-preservation. Our cave-dwelling ancestors knew that a woman without a man was meat for the Tigers (or whatever ate the early hominids).

Yes this needs investigating. But the TRA movement is not the FAULT of women.

oldwomanwhoruns

Yes, we know that there is an issue with young women backing up the TRAs. This needs investigation, presumably it's due to our ancestral sense of self-preservation. Our cave-dwelling ancestors knew that a woman without a man was meat for the Tigers (or whatever ate the early hominids).

I agree, there is an issue with (mostly younger) women supporting all this, and there are probably several reasons for it. But you are right to say that they did not cause this, nor are they the orchestrators of this, they are being used as pawns in something they don't really understand.

Can't remember who said it, but it's so true - AGP men aren't really treated like women at all (if they were they would largely ignored), they are in fact treated like very special men, fawned over etc.

I think some of it for women is that the idea of a man voluntarily choosing to come down off his perch at the top of the hierarchy, and deigning to associate with us in the lower echelons means we must be grateful somehow - he is giving up his privilege etc. Of course he isn't really!

Yes @creepingdeath, it's absolutely the younger women. They absolutely don't really understand what they are getting into, and how the cookie crumbles. When they are older, and have children, and have lost their flush of youth, have miserable pensions and are simultaneously looking after aging parents - then they will understand.

It would be great if the Mess could give this a proper discussion and investigation. There must be someone who has looked into this phenomenon?

And not Mr Blanchard please.

@CreepingDeath

KaycePollard

Because they talked over and contradicted Helen a lot of the time, because at the end Blanchard basically blamed women for AGP , and talked about how he's 'tired of people blaming men and AGPs' .

Also because Arty was completely fawning over Blanchard, and trying to excuse AGP. Basically nowhere did they really acknowledge the impact this has on women.

Added to that they didn't probe or push back against things he said, and even though he was asked about whether porn was the cause of this he kept saying no it isn't. He wouldn't acknowledge the role sissy porn has played in exacerbating this whole issue. He also doesn't acknowledge the ingrained misogyny inherent in dressing as a caricature of a women, full of stereotypes.

Blanchard also basically admitted that his 'treatment' included sending these men out into women's spaces. Who gave him permission to do that? Why did he not care that women might not want these men in our spaces.

Overall it was a total disappointment. A bunch of men talking about this and failing to really admit the damage it does to women.

Karen from "You're Kidding Right' does a great takedown of this interview. She has previously interviewed a transwidow, and Arty has criticised her in the past for asking about the impact and affect this has on the wives of these men. Go figure.

I found this episode quite odd really. I wonder if Blanchard feels a bit got at because he bears quite some responsibility for including the AGP men in the trans umbrella (as well as sending them off to live as women without checking with the women whether that would be ok with them) so maybe it’s easier to lash out and blame those nasty wimmin instead? Whatever, it made me feel quite uncomfortable.

And how does he know that porn hasn’t had an effect on the growing number of AGP transwomen? Has there been any research into it? I thought he was quite dismissive about it. And I was a bit disappointed in Arty

Helen looked a combo of upset, anxious, and sulky, which is exactly how I’d have been after that discussion. Blanchard’s assertion that MTF’s ‘wanting to be a gay male’ is less interesting and involved as FTM’s wish to be lesbian also ground my gears. Man just doesn’t think wome’s sexuality ia all that interesting, and puts a lot of blame at our door for the sexuality of men.

Shit, I got MTF and FTM the wrong way around
in that comment. Excellent for my first post on Mumsnet, eh?

And how does he know that porn hasn’t had an effect on the growing number of AGP transwomen? Has there been any research into it?

That interview with him was really weird. I think he was saying that all fetishes, not only AGP fetishes, are innate, in the way that homosexuality frequently is. Or at least, that a fetish can be triggered by the environment but if you don't have the fetish on this "innate" level already nothing will be triggered. And this belief of his is why he doesn't understand what women are saying about AGP and misogyny. He thinks the fetish doesn't require a cause, it's just there, devoid of any social context.

I don't believe this for a second. I think misogyny is the causal factor. I don't believe that the fact that so many fetishes, including AGP, are misogynistic in nature, is unrelated to the misogyny of society and to male sexual entitlement. A lot of fetishists are simply imagining scenarios where their entitlement is given free reign with no limits.

And I don't think that it's inevitable that men must be raised up to be entitled selfish misogynistic beasts who dehumanise women- even in our current society many men are not like that. I suspect that's where my perspective differs from Blanchard's and Arty Morty's. They think men are just like this so it's not fair to expect them to be better. Whereas I think women should do everything in their power to avoid men like that, and discard them as fast as possible if one slips through the forcefield.

I've never liked Blanchard because of what has already been said. He was happy for women to have their spaces and language removed to support a man with a fetish
I'd like to see more research into fetish but I don't think it will happen. The idea that environment plays no part is ridiculous imo. I don't believe it is innate. Childhood trauma, being exposed to porn when young and society creates fetish. Look at China with the foot binding although that also helped to keep women in their place

Helen's body language when Blanchard was wanging on about porn and women accepting responsibility - several minutes of the hand across the mouth, the classic 'I don't agree, I want to say something, but I'm polite so I'll hold back for the moment' sign. I love her.
While I don't like what Blanchard said (or his sneery look when Helen challenged him), I feel like Graham did try to push back on the porn angle at least. I've also heard a lot of podcast hosts say it's hard to get the balance of pushing back on a guest when they're talking shite, but also knowing that person has given up their time to talk to you and that you don't want to be rude to a guest and deter others from coming on the show.

@CreepingDeath, I'm just about to read all your posts again, they're so good, astute and thought-provoking. Thanks to all the posters actually - this is a thread that really has me thinking.

LGB Alliance video is now back up.

@oldwomanwhoruns

I was hoping that they would address this, too. I'm such a big fan of the Mess, but that last smug comment of Blanchard, that AGPs and TRAs were the fault of women? That women must take some blame???? Wtf???

Helen did struggle to answer him, to be fair. She looked completely wrong-footwd and kind of shell-shocked at his assertion, and as it was right at the end of the show, she didn't have time to frame a considered response.

Yes, we know that there is an issue with young women backing up the TRAs. This needs investigation, presumably it's due to our ancestral sense of self-preservation. Our cave-dwelling ancestors knew that a woman without a man was meat for the Tigers (or whatever ate the early hominids).

Yes this needs investigating. But the TRA movement is not the FAULT of women.

What doesn't get discussed here is the role in the fetishisation of men in film/tv by young female teens and adults, and the influence this also has on young women. I do think there is an element of extreme cosplay involved in some of the trans-men, trying to identify into gay men's spaces to try and act out their fantasies from slash fiction and male ships. Not recognising the fact that is an area created and dominated by women, it isn't a reflection of how actual gay men form or interact in their relationships anymore than how straight men fetishise lesbian relationships.

They have briefly alluded to this on the Mess when Arty told the story of a teen girl who had run away from home and their mother was out searching for her. She'd told her family she was trans before running away and the male name she'd chosen was one of the leads in a gay romance film, very popular with young women.

I'm typing in my lunchbreak and I don't think I'm explaining this very well but I do think there is an additional factor of teen girls becoming so immersed in online slash fandoms and fiction that they want a chance to develop the same sorts of romantic gay relationships that they are reading/watching online. Those relationships are safe and are written by women, the male relationships in these stories play out as women would want them to, exploring emotions and slow burns. It's basically Mills and Boons. Pure fantasy and escapism, no basis in reality.

@VladimirsToes

Shit, I got MTF and FTM the wrong way around in that comment. Excellent for my first post on Mumsnet, eh?

Welcome VladimirsToes , and you're right there's always the endless indulging and delving into men's perspectives, but women's stuff is just an also ran, not considered in the same way.

The whole thing was weird, I agree that he was a 'guest' as such, and they probably didn't want to challenge him too much, but there were really uncomfortable moments that should have been challenged, even in a polite way.

And yes, I suppose Blanchard is now some sort of celebrity 'expert' on this issue, even though his research was done many years ago, and the context and landscape of this has (I would argue) changed significantly.

But it will difficult enough to do more research on AGP when we're not even really allowed to talk about it, and according to some people it doesn't even exist .

I've also heard a lot of podcast hosts say it's hard to get the balance of pushing back on a guest when they're talking shite, but also knowing that person has given up their time to talk to you and that you don't want to be rude to a guest and deter others from coming on the show.

Stephen Nolan is unusually competent at this and it's a under-recognised skillset.

TambourineofRighteousness
I do think there is an additional factor of teen girls becoming so immersed in online slash fandoms and fiction that they want a chance to develop the same sorts of romantic gay relationships that they are reading/watching online. Those relationships are safe and are written by women, the male relationships in these stories play out as women would want them to, exploring emotions and slow burns. It's basically Mills and Boons. Pure fantasy and escapism, no basis in reality.

I remember an interview with a de-transitioner on Benjamin Boyce's podcast that tended to support this. She was a young woman who loved gay romance fanfiction, and said it was partly because the roles were more equal, and she hated how in male/female romance stories or in movies etc. the women were portrayed as helpless etc. And the men dominated. She finally acknowledged that she was a lesbian and detransitioned.

The other thing is, that there isn't the same comparable level of danger or threat to men from these women that there would be from males who the same thing.
In fact, that same young woman talked about the hierarchy in the trans 'community' and how transmen (i.e. biological women) were at the bottom of the pile - of course they were! And also the age thing, most of the trans-identified males were middle aged, but the trans identified females were teenagers. There is such a power imbalance.

@Ghostsintheshelf

LGB Alliance video is now back up.

Thanks Ghost. (Other posters this was the video taken down not Blanchard).

Did they bother talking about the conference again in the video? they only covered 5 mins before focusing on TRAs.

I've not watched it yet, FindTheTruth.
Have seen some TRAs frothing over Julia Long's contribution so wonder if they'll cover that.

One thing I’ve noticed about the girls who are into slash etc, is that they are often portrayed as highly emotional when in fact that are more often highly sexed.
Highly sexed women, with a flair for the sensual and creative, don’t have many avenues to explore their own feelings. Writing about heterosexual sex is difficult if the only sex you’ve ever seen is through porn, or your own teenage experiences left you feeling used and unsatisfied. Being a sexual woman is hard. It’s thorny in ways that are deeply personal for teenagers. For some girls it feels dangerous and violating.
We need to know why some girls aren’t able to write female fantasies that feel true and real and satisfying. Young girls are transitioning to become gay men for really complicated reasons. If they’re escaping reality then we have to change reality, or more and more girls will throw in the towel to become something they mistakingly see as ‘safer’.