The Mess We're In - Video disappeared?

[TambourineofRighteousness]

Does anyone know why this weeks The Mess We're In has disappeared? I was part way through the live stream then the video switched to private and it's not on the channel.

Glinner did mention DP at one point and then said he shouldn't have mentioned his name, does anyone know if has just been taken down for editing purposes?

Thanks ladies, I have been educated!! I'd never heard of 'slash' fiction. Or fiction, written by females, starring their vision of gay males! I just didn't know that it was a 'thing'.

Explains a lot

@Ghostsintheshelf

I've not watched it yet, FindTheTruth. Have seen some TRAs frothing over Julia Long's contribution so wonder if they'll cover that.

No, they didn’t, surprisingly. Kellie-Jay uploaded the sequence and Karen Davis analysed the whole thing. To say that she wasn’t impressed by Jane Clare Jones’ response to Julia is an understatement. In my opinion Julia was crystal-clear about the use of language but perhaps the conference might have not been the right environment for that discussion. Kate or Bev’s (not sure which) placatory response about the need for dialogue surprised me as that ship sailed a long time ago as soon as #no debate was first uttered. Very disappointing, to say the least

@EmbarrassingHadrosaurus

I've also heard a lot of podcast hosts say it's hard to get the balance of pushing back on a guest when they're talking shite, but also knowing that person has given up their time to talk to you and that you don't want to be rude to a guest and deter others from coming on the show.

Stephen Nolan is unusually competent at this and it's a under-recognised skillset.

Yes, I agree that Nolan is good at letting stuff unfold. It gets laid out. I though he was very good with B. Cohen and querying the (dis)comfort for women with having male bodies in single sex spaces with them.

I paraphrase, but B Cohen mentioned the inner feelings of males who identify as women and then of course these should be validated by accessing women's single sex spaces. Nolan didn't just let the bar go at the level of any crime (overt physical/criminal, I presume) being committed. He asks about the comfort of women mattering. Don't forget Cohen roughly said that males should be confirmed in their feelings. There was no response/ tumbleweed by Cohen in return at Nolan's query about the comfort/discomfort of women. It was if 'sure why on earth would anyone have to consider the feelings/comfort of women'.

It was very telling. The feelings of men was to be elevated to a sacred cow status. All women's feelings or comfort/discomfort was beyond worthy of consideration. It sounded (to me) as if women are considered lesser humans which needn't be considered. Why would anyone consider women's safety and comfort when a male (a god in contrast to women) wanted to do something.

I suspect any woman who had asked about women's comfort would be vilified as transphobic. And too uppity by far asking a godhead to consider them; especially if it were to impede a male's wishes.

It made me think that some males peddle a view of humans which must view males are the godhead. Women are those sort of flawed things which are used for comfort and drudgery roles when needed. And for popping out other humans.

I really liked Nolan for considering the comfort of women to be relevant. Not just the feelings of men, or only addressing the aftermath of a criminal act.

Because they talked over and contradicted Helen a lot of the time, because at the end Blanchard basically blamed women for AGP angry, and talked about how he's 'tired of people blaming men and AGPs

Thanks, @CreepingDeath - yes, I too, was a bit put off by the talking over Helen S., and also Blanchard's final quite ranting statement about the rle of women in this.

I wasn't so irritated or disappointed by most of the information he offered - I'm prepared to see that he's coming at it as a clinician, with a lifetime of experience, rather than in the rather nasty politics of transactivism. And he clearly had no truck with transactivism.

I thought his & Arty's discussions of trying to make the parallels between AGP, and nuanced distinctions between homosexuality as often misogynistic, but not necessarily misogynistic, were interesting.

BUt such distictions don't help when women's presence, history, even ability to speak publicly, are being attacked.

However, overall, I found it interesting and a very clear unemotional (as neutral as it might be possible to be on an inherently emotive topic!) discussion from Blanchard of his kowledgge from research & years of clinical work.

In my view, the kind of research Blanchard (and others) do, and the hurly-burly of the politics that we are all being thrown into, are different - each informs the other, but they're not the same. It was a useful reminder of some reason and rationality in this whole mess.

@RepentBirthingPersonFucker

I've never liked Blanchard because of what has already been said. He was happy for women to have their spaces and language removed to support a man with a fetish I'd like to see more research into fetish but I don't think it will happen. The idea that environment plays no part is ridiculous imo. I don't believe it is innate. Childhood trauma, being exposed to porn when young and society creates fetish. Look at China with the foot binding although that also helped to keep women in their place

I know someone who worked as a dominatrix. Her clients were often powerful men like politicians and judges who liked to be treated as sex slaves or dress up as babies, because their fetish had been developed as a kind of antidote to having to be the one in charge all the time. I totally believe fetishes can be acquired rather than being innate.

@VladimirsToes

One thing I’ve noticed about the girls who are into slash etc, is that they are often portrayed as highly emotional when in fact that are more often highly sexed. Highly sexed women, with a flair for the sensual and creative, don’t have many avenues to explore their own feelings. Writing about heterosexual sex is difficult if the only sex you’ve ever seen is through porn, or your own teenage experiences left you feeling used and unsatisfied. Being a sexual woman is hard. It’s thorny in ways that are deeply personal for teenagers. For some girls it feels dangerous and violating. We need to know why some girls aren’t able to write female fantasies that feel true and real and satisfying. Young girls are transitioning to become gay men for really complicated reasons. If they’re escaping reality then we have to change reality, or more and more girls will throw in the towel to become something they mistakingly see as ‘safer’.

Off the top of my head, there are very few fandoms which offer tweens and teenagers fantasy worlds where women are dominant. I wasn't even particuarly a fan but the more I think back on it, Xena: Warrior Princess was an amazing show for girls and it generated a large fan base, including fanworks which has lasted till this day.

It had two female leads, where men were the sidekicks and none of them were permenant cast members for every episode. The show was full centred around two women and their relationship, however you wanted view it. Xena was a female superhero who was made to look and behave like a warrior, they filmed Lucy Lawless in a way that deliberately made her look bigger than she actually is to give the illusion of power and dominance over everyone around, including the men. She was allowed to act in fight scenes which showed she was exerting effort in a fight, angry 'unfeminine' faces, grunting/yelling during battles. Like a man would be allowed to without question.

Where are those sort of characters nowadays for girls? The closest I think was Buffy and even then Sarah Michelle Geller was filmed in a more ladylike manner and didn't exude the same sort of raw power. It had a female lead but it was an ensemble cast with a lot of regular male characters in each episode.

Black Widow? Scarlett Johansson is not filmed any way that is convincing that she can physically overcome the average woman, let a lot full grown men. She fights and is dressed in the male fantasy of female hero. Kicks ass, without making any of those nasty grunty noises, still looks amazing and doesn't look like some giant, unfeminine woman.

Wonder Woman? Starts off well then spends the rest of the film entirely surronded by a cast of men. Again, continues to look sexy and very feminine througout all the fight scenes. And the reason she finally comes into her full powers is because of the love of a man.

Who else? Where are the fantasy films/shows with a predominantly female cast in the same vein as Xena? Girls deserve fantasy or at least shows with a female led case which isn't just a school or family drama focused on all the ups and downs of real life. They need proper escapism too where women are centred because they deserve to be there.

Sorry, this ended up a weird rant and I'm not entirely sure I was going to end up here when I started typing.

I watched the Blanchard interview and found it valuable a sunlight sort of way. Helen's discomfort and Arty's over enthusiasm gives insight into where we are and how we got here. It is obvious that men still don't fully take on board the impact on women.

Blanchard's rant in the end came off as defensive. Maybe he is coming to the realization that the transition treatment protocol was not benign. I would have liked to ask Blanchard if he ever pushed back and told his clients that they could never be women and that they needed to explore other areas of relieving their distress.

Hope this doesn't derail the thread but had to reply to this:

Who else? Where are the fantasy films/shows with a predominantly female cast in the same vein as Xena? Girls deserve fantasy or at least shows with a female led case which isn't just a school or family drama focused on all the ups and downs of real life. They need proper escapism too where women are centred because they deserve to be there.

Not an all female cast but I think Black Panther is the best film in the last few years for this, despite being centred on a man. Several awesome female characters especially Okoye (the general) and Shuri (Panther's younger sister). Nakia also has her own life and isn't just his girlfriend. Real people with wants, ideas, relationships (family and friend ones, not just sexual ones) and inner worlds of their own. Smashes the Bechdel test. I love it so much! Gutted that Chadwick Boseman isn't around to do a sequel. Also wondering what they will do next, esp if it involves Shuri as the younger sister and possible new Black Panther???!

Sorry, as you were!

I do understand what you're are saying but the key point for me is your first sentence "Not an all female cast but I think Black Panther is the best film in the last few years for this, despite being centred on a man." Women are still the support act.

Yes, very true. Sometimes we're so desperate for scraps we'll take anything as a win. I'd love to see more all-female/ mainly female films but the people financing them (men) would need to see the point of something not aimed at them.

I felt so let down by Wonder Woman (after the first great 30 mins with no men in!) because it felt like everyone was saying "you'll like this ladies, this one is for you" but it was still aimed at men!