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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Prison Service says they don't know HOW to record biological sex

50 replies

LonginesPrime · 24/10/2021 11:42

I know Priti Patel has announced that there will be new guidance on recording crimes by sex and not gender, but until this is actually confirmed, I feel it's important to continue to make our voices heard on this. Sorry if this has already been covered, but I figure if one extra person finds out about it, it's worth it.

For those who haven't signed yet, there's a petition on recording crimes by sex and not gender, to which the government wrote an initial response last week (as it reached 10,000 signatures).

What's also very interesting about the official government's response (from 14 Oct 2021) is how mechanically and openly it parrots Stonewall's mad idea that biological sex is a mystery to all and transplaining that there's actually no reliable way to know someone's sex (because, you know, that would be as absurd as having separate men's prisons and women's prisons, which could never happen). The madness of the government response on this needs more light, as they sound insane.

Highlights from their response (quotes in bold):

The Government does not plan to require biological sex to be recorded across the criminal justice system

N.B. This was before Priti's climbdown this week, but the story is just as much about the illogical Stonewall language being used by the government as it is about the crime stats issue.

Currently, the Home Office does not centrally mandate how an offender’s sex or gender identity must be recorded by police. It is for each individual police force to decide what information to record.

N.B. The Home Office and most police forces pay Stonewall to review their policies so biological sex doesn't exist as far as they're concerned.

Officials have noted that ‘biological sex’ has not been defined in the petition. If ‘biological sex’ is defined in terms of anatomy, or chromosomes, then there would be both ethical and logistical challenges for the police or the HMPPS in determining this for every arrested suspect or prisoner. For instance, it would not be appropriate for the police or HMPPS to physically examine every suspect/prisoner in order to determine ‘biological sex’ if it had one of these meanings.

Interesting that they manage to determine biological sex for the purpose of determining whether or not it matches someone's gender (and presumably for healthcare provision?), but are apparently completely stumped when it comes to recording that same information for crime statistics. How do they know to drive people to the men's prison or the women's prison?

Also, in the MOJ/Prison Service's transgender policy document (included in their response), their risk assessment for women's safety includes consideration of physical size and genitals, but these same factors can't be used as indicators of biological sex for statistical purposes. Which also begs the question: are they actually even doing the risk assessments they say they're doing, if it's too mean to check prisoners' anatomy in the first place?

The trans policy document is also an interesting read in its own right - one of the criteria that provides "strong evidence" that the person is transgender is that they consistently use "gendered spaces", for example. And page 32 instructs prisons to use gendered mannerisms as a clue to what gender someone really is deep down - so HM Prison Service actually believes that if you sit with your legs crossed and can pull off a high-pitched giggle, that's evidence that you are a woman. The fact no-one seems to have noticed how utterly sexist this is (even outside of the obvious safety issues and lack of logical thought) is astounding.

Although the government appear to have changed their minds in the last week (presumably due to Nolan investigates), IMO it's still worth signing the petition while it's open, especially with all the flip-flopping going on and the assertions by Stonewall et al that most people don't care about biology and the women who object are only a tiny minority of bigots. This is an opportunity to show the government that's not the case and that this is a serious problem.

I'd also suggest writing to the Home Office and the police forces who are tied into the Stonewall definition of sex=gender to request they ditch Stonewall. The relevant police forces are listed on the Sex Matters website. The government needs to stop paying Stonewall to lobby them into this madness.

OP posts:
Reptar · 24/10/2021 11:51

Officials have noted that ‘biological sex’ has not been defined in the petition.
The response is a crock. I started a petition once. There was a word limit and I was not expected to supply definitions of commonly understood terms that already have a legal definition, such as 'sex'.

Gncq · 24/10/2021 12:00

I was thinking about this just this morning.
How does Priti Patel's statement line up with what the Home Office have very recently said about this issue?
Can she just override them and say "actually no, recording sex is very simple. Do it.". ?

InspiralCoalescenceRingdown · 24/10/2021 12:02

The Home Office doesn't know how to define sex in order to record it, but somehow the General Register Office does?

I'd suggest some inter-deparmental collaboration, if the GRO wasn't already under the Home Office.

This is "the dog ate my homework" grade rubbish.

HoardingSamphireSaurus · 24/10/2021 12:21

I was thinking about this, and a couple of court cases. I think it is the sheer stupidity of seeing it writing us precisely why it was written in the first place.

Courts, prisons, newspapers cannot identify the sex of an individual because a seemingly supportive law has been subverted and weaponised.

Trying to explain it gets convoluted and Stonewall etc have many years of practice openly mis stating the law.

So by writing what they did they have shown clearly just how stupid their dilemma is... and how easily it can be rectified.

Lovelyricepudding · 24/10/2021 12:29

DEFRA might also be able to offer some support on the definitions of sex. I have a sneaky suspicion that sex and correctly identifying the sex of animals probably pops up quite frequently in livestock legislation...

MarshmallowSwede · 24/10/2021 12:32

They have been putting men in men’s prisons and women in women’s prisons for centuries.. but all of a sudden can’t? Bullshit.

JurgensCakeBaby · 24/10/2021 12:40

PNomis the prison computer system has a section for recording sex and a further section on transgender or identifying with a gender other than sex at birth, so not sure what they're talking about....

334bu · 24/10/2021 13:06

As there are only about 5000 people with Gender Recognition Certificates in the country, everybody else has a birth certificate with a record of their biological sex. To say there is no way to check a persons sex is utter bollocks.

FrancescaContini · 24/10/2021 13:13

Gaslighting

LonginesPrime · 24/10/2021 13:19

They have been putting men in men’s prisons and women in women’s prisons for centuries.. but all of a sudden can’t? Bullshit.

Well, exactly - they've been "educated" by Stonewall, so now they realise the error of their ways - silly them thinking biological sex was a real thing all these years!

OP posts:
1Week · 24/10/2021 13:25

Good call for them to ask Defra .
Farmers will know how to differentiate a bull from a heifer.

TheWeeDonkey · 24/10/2021 13:53

Bullshit and bollocks*

*Please note both bulls and bollocks are in fact male

lazylinguist · 24/10/2021 13:58

Hmmm... isn't it still the case that men, but not women, can inherit hereditary peerages, and that this is still determinedby sex, not genderwoo? How on earth do they tell what sex the person is then? Confused Hmm

terryleather · 24/10/2021 13:58

Disingenuous intelligence insulting shite.

igivein · 24/10/2021 14:26

They already know. Everyone who is arrested has a DNA sample taken
at point of arrest. The DNA profile generated includes sex. What more do they need?

catzwhiskas · 24/10/2021 15:10

There is still the thorny problem of those with a GRC.while that exists there will be great difficulty in policing appropriately.

AlfonsoTheUnrepetant · 24/10/2021 15:17

OK. Send them to a farm to milk a bull if they don't understand that there are biological differences between males and females.

Giggorata · 24/10/2021 15:24

@igivein

They already know. Everyone who is arrested has a DNA sample taken at point of arrest. The DNA profile generated includes sex. What more do they need?
I came on here to say just this.

What obstructive bollocks from the authorities.

WarriorN · 24/10/2021 15:29

Of course they'll know. It will be on medical records. Which they'll need to know for any serious medical health issues ffs.

Dozer · 24/10/2021 15:38

Thanks for flagging this, agree the government response is worrying.

334bu · 24/10/2021 15:40

Of course they'll know. It will be on medical records. Which they'll need to know for any serious medical health issues ffs.

It is actually possible to change the sex marker on your medical records to the opposite sex. This is why some transgender people are not called for tests designed for their biological sex. Stonewall was recently complaining about this as transmen were not being called for smear tests. This was all the fault of the NHS of course, despite the fact that these people had deliberately chosen to hide their real sex on their records.

1Week · 24/10/2021 16:09

So they have flat out lied
Not just disingenuous deflection, but flat out lied about their proceses

WarriorN · 24/10/2021 16:30

@334bu

*Of course they'll know. It will be on medical records. Which they'll need to know for any serious medical health issues ffs.*

It is actually possible to change the sex marker on your medical records to the opposite sex. This is why some transgender people are not called for tests designed for their biological sex. Stonewall was recently complaining about this as transmen were not being called for smear tests. This was all the fault of the NHS of course, despite the fact that these people had deliberately chosen to hide their real sex on their records.

I had thought about that after I posted as I know some children have had their marker changed. Which is shocking when you consider that for some medical conditions sex is imperative.

LonginesPrime · 24/10/2021 16:43

It is actually possible to change the sex marker on your medical records to the opposite sex

Yes, this is part of the problem - in addition to the ridiculous assertion that the government doesn't understand the question and doesn't know what's meant by "biological sex", the other argument they put forward against recording biological sex is that since GRCs require people to be regarded as the opposite sex for all administrative purposes.

Crime statistics are an administrative thing, so they say (and I suspect rightly in terms of compliance with the law) that people with a GRC should be recorded as the sex on their GRC.

Although the GRC exception exists, this is still a completely separate issue from letting everyone self-identify and saying "what's biological sex? There's literally no way to tell and it's an impossible task..what are you even talking about? We've never recorded biological sex, are you mad?".

Since GRCs exist, they could still have one rule for people with those and a separate rule for everyone else. But they don't.

What's interesting is that footnote 5 of the policy explains that until 2018, they let prisoners self-identify their gender on reception to prison, so "it is not possible to determine if this is the legal gender or whether the gender has changed".

Now, though, footnote 5 says that they try to check prisoners' legal gender too (although this still might not match their biological sex, thanks to the GRA). Hmm...it's almost as if accurate data collection actually helps the government to discharge its duties. What a revelation!

OP posts:
JellySaurus · 24/10/2021 18:38

If the government cannot define sex how can they have passed legislation that allows a person to change the sex marker on their birth certificate?

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