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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Prison Service says they don't know HOW to record biological sex

50 replies

LonginesPrime · 24/10/2021 11:42

I know Priti Patel has announced that there will be new guidance on recording crimes by sex and not gender, but until this is actually confirmed, I feel it's important to continue to make our voices heard on this. Sorry if this has already been covered, but I figure if one extra person finds out about it, it's worth it.

For those who haven't signed yet, there's a petition on recording crimes by sex and not gender, to which the government wrote an initial response last week (as it reached 10,000 signatures).

What's also very interesting about the official government's response (from 14 Oct 2021) is how mechanically and openly it parrots Stonewall's mad idea that biological sex is a mystery to all and transplaining that there's actually no reliable way to know someone's sex (because, you know, that would be as absurd as having separate men's prisons and women's prisons, which could never happen). The madness of the government response on this needs more light, as they sound insane.

Highlights from their response (quotes in bold):

The Government does not plan to require biological sex to be recorded across the criminal justice system

N.B. This was before Priti's climbdown this week, but the story is just as much about the illogical Stonewall language being used by the government as it is about the crime stats issue.

Currently, the Home Office does not centrally mandate how an offender’s sex or gender identity must be recorded by police. It is for each individual police force to decide what information to record.

N.B. The Home Office and most police forces pay Stonewall to review their policies so biological sex doesn't exist as far as they're concerned.

Officials have noted that ‘biological sex’ has not been defined in the petition. If ‘biological sex’ is defined in terms of anatomy, or chromosomes, then there would be both ethical and logistical challenges for the police or the HMPPS in determining this for every arrested suspect or prisoner. For instance, it would not be appropriate for the police or HMPPS to physically examine every suspect/prisoner in order to determine ‘biological sex’ if it had one of these meanings.

Interesting that they manage to determine biological sex for the purpose of determining whether or not it matches someone's gender (and presumably for healthcare provision?), but are apparently completely stumped when it comes to recording that same information for crime statistics. How do they know to drive people to the men's prison or the women's prison?

Also, in the MOJ/Prison Service's transgender policy document (included in their response), their risk assessment for women's safety includes consideration of physical size and genitals, but these same factors can't be used as indicators of biological sex for statistical purposes. Which also begs the question: are they actually even doing the risk assessments they say they're doing, if it's too mean to check prisoners' anatomy in the first place?

The trans policy document is also an interesting read in its own right - one of the criteria that provides "strong evidence" that the person is transgender is that they consistently use "gendered spaces", for example. And page 32 instructs prisons to use gendered mannerisms as a clue to what gender someone really is deep down - so HM Prison Service actually believes that if you sit with your legs crossed and can pull off a high-pitched giggle, that's evidence that you are a woman. The fact no-one seems to have noticed how utterly sexist this is (even outside of the obvious safety issues and lack of logical thought) is astounding.

Although the government appear to have changed their minds in the last week (presumably due to Nolan investigates), IMO it's still worth signing the petition while it's open, especially with all the flip-flopping going on and the assertions by Stonewall et al that most people don't care about biology and the women who object are only a tiny minority of bigots. This is an opportunity to show the government that's not the case and that this is a serious problem.

I'd also suggest writing to the Home Office and the police forces who are tied into the Stonewall definition of sex=gender to request they ditch Stonewall. The relevant police forces are listed on the Sex Matters website. The government needs to stop paying Stonewall to lobby them into this madness.

OP posts:
Funnylittlefloozie · 24/10/2021 19:04

I would dearly love to know why a case board is convened to manage TG prisoners, but is not convened to manage prisoners displaying any other protected characteristics, especially disability or pregnancy. Wtf makes trans prisoners so bloody special (especially given that most of them are sex offenders)?

LonginesPrime · 24/10/2021 19:19

I would dearly love to know why a case board is convened to manage TG prisoners, but is not convened to manage prisoners displaying any other protected characteristics, especially disability or pregnancy. Wtf makes trans prisoners so bloody special (especially given that most of them are sex offenders)?

Gender identity isn't a protected characteristic - that's precisely why they need a board to decide on it.

With actual protected characteristics, it's about something tangible that people broadly agree on (and/or someone's perception that you have that characteristic).

But if they're going to allow people to be treated as a different sex simply based on what that person says, with no way to prove it because by definition no-one else knows how someone experiences their own inner world, then it makes sense to have a board because it's such a subjective judgment that it would be impossible for just one other person to agree such a momentous and far-reaching change to how that person is defined in law (or for the purpose of a sex-segregated scenario like prison).

OP posts:
Applesandpears23 · 24/10/2021 19:23

Do prisons still conduct routine strip searches on prisoners when they arrive? Surely this means that for those who are actually incarcerated they do know exactly what genitalia the prisoners have.

GreyhoundG1rl · 24/10/2021 19:29

@Applesandpears23

Do prisons still conduct routine strip searches on prisoners when they arrive? Surely this means that for those who are actually incarcerated they do know exactly what genitalia the prisoners have.
I'm pretty certain they do. They know fine well what a fully intact male looks like, as do we all Hmm As a pp said; how on earth did they manage to separate the sexes before all this gender bollocks started? They've been putting offenders behind bars since time immemorial, there was never the slightest confusion as to who goes where before.
Lovelyricepudding · 24/10/2021 20:02

@Funnylittlefloozie

I would dearly love to know why a case board is convened to manage TG prisoners, but is not convened to manage prisoners displaying any other protected characteristics, especially disability or pregnancy. Wtf makes trans prisoners so bloody special (especially given that most of them are sex offenders)?
But how can they possibly figure out which prisoners are TG if they can't identify sex?
Funnylittlefloozie · 24/10/2021 20:20

As far as I'm aware, the case boards are only convened where a prisoner is e.g. physically male but stating their gender identity as female (and presumably vice versa). I work for the Prison Service, I have sat on case boards. They are farcical, because they are the Emperors New Clothes made real. We all sit in a room, and discuss whether or not what we can all see to be the truth, is in fact the truth.

Funnylittlefloozie · 24/10/2021 20:22

Pressed 'post' too soon. I can see no justification AT ALL for holding people with intact male genitals in female prisons (and vice versa of course, but that never really seems to come up as an issue).

Lovelyricepudding · 24/10/2021 20:40

But how do you know they are physically male if the prison service is incapable to determinin sex or even working out what sex is?

Lovelyricepudding · 24/10/2021 20:40

Are they lying?

JellySaurus · 24/10/2021 20:42

Wtf makes trans prisoners so bloody special

Their impossible to ascertain, undefinable sex.

GreyhoundG1rl · 24/10/2021 20:45

@JellySaurus

Wtf makes trans prisoners so bloody special

Their impossible to ascertain, undefinable sex.

That is pretty special, you've got to admit. Totally elevated above us lesser mortals who are as dull as ditchwater, we're so ordinary.
Runningupthecurtains · 24/10/2021 20:47

Governments could identify sex when it was illegal to marry a person of the same sex. How did they manage if it's impossible to tell?

ApocalypseNowt · 24/10/2021 20:55

I don't want to boast but I'm dead good at telling if someone is a man or a woman. I will selflessly offer my services for a day rate commensurate with my super special skill (I have eyes).

GreyhoundG1rl · 24/10/2021 21:05

@Runningupthecurtains

Governments could identify sex when it was illegal to marry a person of the same sex. How did they manage if it's impossible to tell?
Or even to have a relationship with someone of the same sex... If only all those arrested for homosexual acts had the presence of mind to say "Oh no, Officer, you're mistaken! I'm a woman" 🤷🏻‍♀️
Piapiano · 24/10/2021 21:12

If they don't know what biological sex is then how do they allocate people to men's and women's prisons? Surely they don't just go on someone's appearance? How bigoted and transphobic.

purpleboy · 24/10/2021 21:46

@Applesandpears23

Do prisons still conduct routine strip searches on prisoners when they arrive? Surely this means that for those who are actually incarcerated they do know exactly what genitalia the prisoners have.
Yes they do. So pretty obvious on arrival at the prison.
Fukuraptor · 24/10/2021 22:11

Yes, the argument that access to e.g. public toilets has never been based on DNA testing and genital inspection because that would be unecessary too onerous and invasive, doesn't easily transfer to prisons - where people have already been DNA swabbed and strip searched for other very good reasons.
Hmm

EyesOpening · 25/10/2021 09:24

I know nothing about police/judiciary procedures but I’m assuming that when someone is arrested/up in court, they would have to provide ID, so that the record goes against the correct person. I know driving licences can be changed so is there such a thing as primary ID eg birth certificate, that they’d have to provide which, unless the person has GRC, would show their sex?

MarshmallowSwede · 25/10/2021 10:19

Men and women respond differently to medication, so all this make believe and pretend puts a lot of pressure on doctors and nurses.

Giving medical care to prisoners would also require accurate medical information on the prisoner so doctors and nurses can administer proper medical care.

Also.. why have I yet to hear about a trans man (biological woman) ranting and begging to be put into a man’s prison?

All these men begging and demanding to be put into a woman prison and all this song and dance and gaslighting. I’m so sick of this.. none of this is for the benefit of women at all. This is all for men and what they feel like they want.

And I don’t give one damned about a GRC.. this is pretty much make believe on a useless piece of a paper that I can wipe my ass with. You cannot change sex.

Those grc as as good as toilet roll. So what someone has a grc? Their dna is still male dna. Therefore they belong in a man’s prison.

Bull shit! They have been putting men into men’s prisons for ages but all of a sudden don’t know how to record sex?

The government can record who pays taxes and has kept records genealogy in parish records but all of a sudden when it comes to knowing what a man is they “don’t know how”.

Who is buying this bullshit?

JellySaurus · 25/10/2021 11:30

Applesandpears23
Do prisons still conduct routine strip searches on prisoners when they arrive? Surely this means that for those who are actually incarcerated they do know exactly what genitalia the prisoners have.
Yes they do. So pretty obvious on arrival at the prison.

So what happens when a TW arrives at the prison. Who strip searches them?

334bu · 25/10/2021 11:49

So what happens when a TW arrives at the prison. Who strip searches them?
Good question and one raised by female officers in Ireland who complained about being coerced to search male bodied prisoners

WarriorN · 25/10/2021 14:20

Coming back to medical records, if this is around whether a prisoner could possibly and very rarely be intersex, that would be on records.

The majority of TW are easily identified by sight and sound.

Runningupthecurtains · 25/10/2021 14:21

How did we and up with men's and women's prisons in the first place if no-one can tell the difference? Were people just randomly assigned to one or the other without anyone in authority having a clue which was the appropriate facility?
It really isn't as difficult as some people would have us believe.

WarriorN · 25/10/2021 14:22

Giving medical care to prisoners would also require accurate medical information on the prisoner so doctors and nurses can administer proper medical care.

Which was really my original point, for the most part i imagine it would be clear on medical records. although some idiots go ahead and change it anyway.

Bosky · 30/10/2021 02:06

The Police definitely know how to ascertain biological sex, whatever they say to the contrary.

If this information was recorded CORRECTLY (rather than self-ID "gender identity") then the Prison Service could refer to it.

"Being arrested: your rights"

Giving fingerprints, photographs and samples

The police have the right to take photographs of you. They can also take fingerprints and a DNA sample (eg from a mouth swab or head hair root) from you as well as swab the skin surface of your hands and arms. They don’t need your permission to do this.

The police need both your permission and the authority of a senior police officer to take samples like blood or urine, or to take dental impressions.

This doesn’t apply when they take a blood or urine sample in connection with drink or drug driving.

Information from fingerprints and samples is stored in a police database.

Continues at:

www.gov.uk/arrested-your-rights/giving-fingerprints-photographs-and-samples

The DNA sample, which they "can" take, without permission would reveal biological sex.

Are they not bothering to do this?

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