"Trans Criminals are not Women" says Priti Patel

[Fluffymule]

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10124021/Priti-Patel-orders-woke-police-stop-recording-offences-trans-women-female-crime-stats.html

I thought this was interesting.

So, what's the TRA argument against this going to be? Surely a backlash against this ruling from the Home Secretary by insisting these criminals, including rapists must by named as Women would simply shine huge amounts of sunlight on an unpalatable issue?

@Warmduscher

Finding common ground with Priti Patel is proper doing my head in.

Same.

Never mine that under UK law it is impossible for a woman to commit rape. How were they even convicted of the crime if they are women?!?

Not impossible so much as unlikely/unusual. Obviously all these people are not actually biological women, but there have been biological women convicted of rape.

Not impossible so much as unlikely/unusual. Obviously all these people are not actually biological women, but there have been biological women convicted of rape.

I have read that if a woman aids a man to commit rape, then she can also be charged with rape - is that actually true in English law?

@Cactu

There are estimated to be 200-500,000 trans people in the UK (male and female). We know 423 transwomen have been convicted of rape alone since 2013. Rates of offending are extremely high within this group. Why is this just being brushed under the carpet?

This.

@GingerAndTheBiscuits

I think that 400+ figure may include some joint enterprise prosecutions and possibly also other forms of penetration? Trying to find original reporting of the figure

Nope. Rape, in UK law, is penetration with a penis without consent. Women cannot commit this crime.

I think it would be really good actually of they recorded each criminal's sex and "gender identity" - if they claim to have one.

For people who do not believe in these stereotypes, the "gender identity" would be stated as "none" and their sex recorded accurately.

For people who are not trans but believe in such stereotypes so have a belief they are the same gender as their sex, both would be recorded and it is clear then that they match, and how the crime statistics by sex should be categorised.

For people who are trans they would record their sex (so that crime stats are accurate, the nonsensical idea that a woman can commit rape is no longer perpetuated, and they are placed in the correct sex-segregated prison) but they can also record their "gender identity" so that for example, if they are a transwoman, while in the male prison staff will know to refer to them as she/ her. This is so important to them that I presume they'd want that to continue in the prison environment.

Then we would, by filtering the data, have accurate statistics on how many self-declared trans criminals, and male and female non-trans criminals were committing which crimes, which is surely one of the key purposes of collecting data in the first place: to get a clear and objective picture of trends in crime and who is committing it.

Yes, I agree. They should record both.

@SusannaRowan

Not impossible so much as unlikely/unusual. Obviously all these people are not actually biological women, but there have been biological women convicted of rape.

I have read that if a woman aids a man to commit rape, then she can also be charged with rape - is that actually true in English law?

Ah yes assisting a rape basically. But a woman on her own cannot rape someone, it's literally impossible.

Cactu:

There are estimated to be 200-500,000 trans people in the UK (male and female). We know 423 transwomen have been convicted of rape alone since 2013. Rates of offending are extremely high within this group. Why is this just being brushed under the carpet?

That is more than one a week this period.

If you can’t cope with a government you didn’t vote for and disagree with on most things sharing an opinion with you what is the point of petitioning governments to make changes?

You don’t have to like the Tories. You can despise them. But when women organise and governments listen give them credit, it might encourage them to listen to other things. Because if we don’t do you honestly think TRAs would not lobby for their wants? We’re all the TRAs agonising about Teresa May going to Pink Nees awards? When the Tories were into the idea of self ID was there massive handwringing as a bunch or allies found themselves aligned with the nasty party? If Stonewall wasn’t in the shit right now would they refuse to speak to Conservatives or refuse money from them?

Behave.

@ErrolTheDragon

Ah, I wondered if that would be where she'd go with this.

Well, how trans people are recorded if they are victims of crime is changing the subject. I'd hope that the police and other officials deal with all victims of crime sensitively and compassionately. But surely it's in the interests of the 'trans community' for accuracy of here too - recording both sex and gender identity - so that it can be discerned if there is an excess of crimes against them?

Ah but if you have accurate statistics then the whole "most oppressed" narrative falls apart.

@Warmduscher

Finding common ground with Priti Patel is proper doing my head in.

Haha this!

DdraigGoch
Ah but if you have accurate statistics then the whole "most oppressed" narrative falls apart.

The "most oppressed" narrative falls apart if one mentions native Americans in Canada, the Rohingya people, Tibet....

This just proves the ridiculousness of the ideology. So transwomen are only women if they don't commit crimes? Meaning that criminality is what defines the sexes/genders? At what point would a crime-commiting transwoman become a woman? When he's served his sentence? Partway through?

@SnoopyLights

I'm absolutely shocked that this LGBTcopUK person has posted this, and I hope the women she is responding to in these tweets make proper complaints to her Force as a result.

Demanding that women should not be recorded as VICTIMS if trans CRIMINALS cannot be recorded as women is disgusting in itself but why has she then gone on to tweet about trans victims not being recorded as the gender they identify with?

In the space of just a few hours, she's somehow changed criminal into victim in this debate very quickly and easily.

Meanwhile, she doesn't seem to acknowledge that being a victim of a crime, such as being raped, might leave a woman feeling that her identity has been erased, or that the rapist did not see her as a person (and that's before we get to how the police, lawyers, court systems etc might make a rape victim feel like her entire identity, womanhood, and personhood has been striped away). Especially if that woman then has to start calling her rapist 'she' and watch everyone else involved put her rapists hurt feelings first.

Fucking outrageous. Complaints need to be made and this officer needs to be disciplined for these comments.

beta.northumbria.police.uk/about-us/policies/command-services/use-of-social-media/

Officers and staff must consider their use of social media activities whether in a work related or a personal capacity. These must not cause any risk to public confidence in the Force,

I've submitted a complaint to Northumbria Police.

Northumbria Police's complaints form twice replaces "sex" with "gender" and in the drop down box for religion lists all of the usual ones, plus "prefer not to say" and "other" but makes no mention of "atheist" or "agnostic". I can't put "other", can I? Atheism is not another religion, it isn't a religion at all.

I think it's all a bloody big mess.

But. One of the things we read a lot is that many hate crimes and assaults are carried out on transgender people: how do we know? We don't. If we do want to know how many crimes are carried out against transgender people, and we should be stamping very hard on all hate-crimes, then it makes sense to collect a lot of data (which can be anonymised for statistical analysis) concerning biological sex as well as Gender. Gender being a social construct means we all have a gender ID even if we don't actually acknowledge it (i try to answer this question quite often, i have never managed "what makes me a woman?". I mean i have managed: gender assigned at birth etc, but what makes me feel like a woman? not so easy)

This kind of statistical recording should, in theory, keep everyone happy. We would know, for example, how many trans people have been attacked/Been the victim of hate crime, etc. I wonder, though.

I agree that correct data collection would be the best option for everyone what ever their sex or gender, for both victims and offenders.

@Rhannion

I agree that correct data collection would be the best option for everyone what ever their sex or gender, for both victims and offenders.

Once aware 99.9% would no doubt agree. It is simple common sense after all.

@Rhannion

I agree that correct data collection would be the best option for everyone what ever their sex or gender, for both victims and offenders.

You’d think but even aside from the “validation” issue (needing emotional validation from statistics is beyond me, but it’s apparently necessary for The Most Oppressed) I don’t think TRAs would like this. I don’t think they’d WANT people to be able to access and analyse that data.

Perhaps the TRAs would be concerned that recording both would show that males commit crimes at the same rate regardless of gender.

Enough4me

It leaves them no where at all to hide. They know this. Hence lobby groups are so strenuously opposed to it.

Well TRAs are only one part of this, aren't they? There are other trans people who would prefer data to be collected like this and they should be heard too.

I'm not sure how that would work with a GRC? My preference would be that the data would be really comprehensive but completely anonymous so that GRC could also be noted.

So I don't see how they are going to even know how to implement Priti's order to record biological sex at this point because they've tied themselves in knots already

Simple blood test would sort this out. Not sure about the ethics of actual taking the blood/ the legal side of it but a blood test to look at the XX/XY chromosomes which tell them the sex. No need to look in anyone's pants, not that there is anyway, but this would be an irrefutable way of knowing prisoners sex.