Educate me. Please.

[sleepyshiftworker]

I'm mid 30s, mother, divorced, paramedic, bisexual.

I consider myself a feminist. I'm a mother of both genders.

I am confused by everything. What is gender now? What is sex? I don't understand?

When I was at school there was one gay lad, now my daughter comes home telling me 5 people are pansexual, two trans etc and I have to go and google what these things mean. Clearly my head is under a rock.

Please educate me.
I listen to the guilty feminist podcast and had to google what CIS meant the other day.

According to gender ideology you are not a mother. You are now a birthing parent and person with a vaginal and cervix who menstruates. If you are 'cis' that means you identify with an version of womanhood last seen in the 1950s. It means you have identified with being considered a sex object and getting less pay than men so you had better not complain. You are also not as good as being a woman as a man who identifies that way. If you dare to hesitate getting undressed in a communal changing room with a man who looks like a man complete with beard and pens then you are a horrible transphobe and could be arrested under the Scottish governments new hate crime laws if the individual identifies (even briefly) as a women and perceives your hesitancy to be hate.

Read Trans by Helen Joyce. There are so many strands to it and Helen's book is a great explainer.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3145470-Break-it-down-for-me

Here you go, OP.

The whole ideology of 'gender' has been cobbled together with left-over bits of cannibalised post modernism and glitter glue. It doesn't make sense and you can't understand it because it's not based in science or logic.

There are still two sexes. Always have been, always will be.
'Gender' is stereotypes, that's all.
Some people are confusedly and/or opportunistically conflating and muddling the two terms.

Feel free to ask questions!

a man complete with beard and pens

Especially look out for them. Sharpie-havers are the real trouble makers.

Sex is biological and unchangeable. Women are adult, human females just like they always were. Men are adult, human males just like they always were.

Gender, or what some people call 'gender identity' is supposedly about whether you 'feel like a woman/man' on the inside' (regardless of which one you really are. Some people (astonishingly) believe it's this that really dictates whether you are a man or a woman, and they get very angry if anyone says this isn't the case. In reality, gender identity is just labelling yourself based on a bunch of outdated stereotypes about what women or men are supposed to like/do/look like. It's sexist and regressive.

I still think this, by the legend that is Barracker, is a great explanation as you can imagine yourself looking back on where we are now thinking...

It Was A Very Dark Time

"They literally stopped recognising every actual single woman and girl, every female person. And they told us that we were now all an identity instead of a sex, a psychology instead of a physiology. That was what female now meant. So that men could say they were women. And they did, hundreds of thousands of them did. There was no single word for actual females. We weren't allowed one. Our word was reallocated to men. We had to talk about ourselves as people with cervixes, or menstruators, and we had to agree that biology wasn't the real difference between the sexes, identity was. One by one, every reference to biological sex was replaced in every law with references to identity, until the law had erased any connection with female biology from pregnancy, childbirth, motherhood. Everything became something that applied to both men and women because it was forbidden to have real references to sex.
Stating that only females were women was enough to lose your job, or even be charged with a crime. Failing to agree with a man that he was a woman was enough to be ostracised, censored or threatened with legal action. Men took over women's sports, institutions, groups. Men represented us in every level of society, calling themselves women. There were no words to distinguish ourselves from these men. Everyone could see the female sex were becoming unspeakable people, unspoken of. You weren't allowed to acknowledge our separate existence from male people. Men committed crimes and society said women did it. You could never escape a man because he could follow you into any public space by identifying as female. People were very, very afraid to tell the truth.
Many hundreds of children lost their reproductive organs trying to become the other sex. It was a very dark time."

If it's a man complete with beard and pens, it might actually be a woman, with a drawn on moustache. There's really no way of knowing, short of testing chromosomes.

The Guilty Feminist's feminism isn't the feminism of the majority of women on this board. That's why you're hearing cis - because that kind of feminism buys into gender ideology and asserts that males can be women. Here, you will mostly find the gender critical view that sex is real and immutable and gender is simply based on the kinds of stereotypes we should have said goodbye to for good decades ago.

Read everything you can on gender identity.

Only replace gender with sex role stereotypes (that are harmful to women) because that what it means.

Then the rose tint falls away.

Sex is still what it always has been and always will be. Don’t let anyone fuck with what you know to be true.

@OhHolyJesus

I still think this, by the legend that is Barracker, is a great explanation as you can imagine yourself looking back on where we are now thinking...

It Was A Very Dark Time

"They literally stopped recognising every actual single woman and girl, every female person. And they told us that we were now all an identity instead of a sex, a psychology instead of a physiology. That was what female now meant. So that men could say they were women. And they did, hundreds of thousands of them did. There was no single word for actual females. We weren't allowed one. Our word was reallocated to men. We had to talk about ourselves as people with cervixes, or menstruators, and we had to agree that biology wasn't the real difference between the sexes, identity was. One by one, every reference to biological sex was replaced in every law with references to identity, until the law had erased any connection with female biology from pregnancy, childbirth, motherhood. Everything became something that applied to both men and women because it was forbidden to have real references to sex.
Stating that only females were women was enough to lose your job, or even be charged with a crime. Failing to agree with a man that he was a woman was enough to be ostracised, censored or threatened with legal action. Men took over women's sports, institutions, groups. Men represented us in every level of society, calling themselves women. There were no words to distinguish ourselves from these men. Everyone could see the female sex were becoming unspeakable people, unspoken of. You weren't allowed to acknowledge our separate existence from male people. Men committed crimes and society said women did it. You could never escape a man because he could follow you into any public space by identifying as female. People were very, very afraid to tell the truth.
Many hundreds of children lost their reproductive organs trying to become the other sex. It was a very dark time."

That is chilling. It is a dark time indeed.

It is a dark time indeed.

It is. But ...

Cis is a term that is not appreciated on here and in fact under the special rules for this Board you cannot refer to posters on here as 'Cis'.

It's a bollocks term that makes woman - adult human females - a subset of their own sex. Lots of people will try and force it on you, use it about you, these are the same people who absolutely insist they must be referred to as they demand, tolerance only goes one way - theirs.

This is from a couple of years ago but really spells it out -
janeclarejones.com/2018/11/13/the-annals-of-the-terf-wars/

@Nellodee

If it's a man complete with beard and pens, it might actually be a woman, with a drawn on moustache. There's really no way of knowing, short of testing chromosomes.

Absolutely! It is quite impossible to tell if someone is male by the body shape, genitals, voice, gait, smell, manner, hands... oh. Except it isn't. It only takes a glance. But we must pretend we have no idea in order to keep safe. And men think that because we pretend that we actually have no idea

OP if a rapist states after they are convicted that they identify as a woman then he will be sent to a women's prison. This even though court has found it is harmful to women inmates and places then at risk of rape. Indeed just such a man did rape a woman in prison after being placed there because he said he was a woman.

If you are vulnerable and barely dressed in hospital then you could find yourself in a bed next to a man, even a male sex offender, if he states he is a woman (nothing more is necessary - only this statement). And if in your confused sedated state ask why there is a man in the next bed leering at you (after all it is well known single sex wards are needed and women are regularly sexuslly assaulted in hospital) then hospital guidelines state that you must be informed that no, this man is actually a woman. And if you complain these same guidelines instruct nurses that you are a bigot.

Ok so I feel no better 🥵😂

I think the situation at your daughter's school is caused by social contagion. There's evidence to suggest that girls have historically been more vulnerable to different forms of this. A professor called Lisa Littman coined the term Rapid Onset Gender Dysphoria in 2018 to describe this new phenomenon where kids who have never previously shown any sign of gender confusion suddenly start to exhibit distress with their bodies.

Okay, this is something that cuts to the heart of it. Your job is to decide which side you're on, and whether you believe only enthusiastic consent is consent.

extract

this is a real-life exchange that took place between a lesbian activist, and a trans activist. the lesbian asked the trans “What’s the cotton ceiling?” and the following exchange ensued (if this is confusing in any way, its either my fault in formatting it, or its the fault of the trans activist for making such little sense in the first place. the lesbian was totally clear at all times):

—–Original Message—–

From: [redacted lesbian]
Sent: March-10-12 12:04 PM
To: [redacted trans]
Subject: What’s the cotton ceiling?
Thanks.

On Mon, Mar 12, 2012 at 1:27 PM, [redacted trans] wrote:
Hi there,

The cotton ceiling is a theory proposed by trans porn star and activist Drew DeVeaux to explain the experiences queer trans women have with simultaneous social inclusion and sexual exclusion within the broader queer women’s communities. Basically, it means that cis queer women will be friends with us and talk day and night about trans rights and ending transmisogyny, but will still not consider us viable sexual partners.

The term cotton ceiling is a reference to the “glass ceiling” that second wave feminist identified in the workforce, wherein women could only advance so high in the workforce but could not break through into positions of power and authority. The cotton represents underwear, signifying sex.

The theory of the cotton ceiling is useful in identifying the dynamic trans women are experiencing, and is meant to open up conversation around desirability’s intersections with transmisogyny and transphobia.

I hope this description is helpful! Let me know if you have any other questions.

From: [redacted lesbian]
Sent: March-12-12 1:34 PM
To: [redacted trans]
Subject: Re: What’s the cotton ceiling?
Thanks. Do you really think lesbians are transphobic for not wanting to have sex with a trans woman who is male-bodied?

On Mon, Mar 12, 2012 at 1:57 PM, [redacted trans] wrote:
Trans women are not male-bodied. There is nothing male about our bodies.

I think that everyone has the right to decide who they want to have sex with, how they want to have that sex, and when they want to have that sex, or to not have sex at all. Consent is incredibly important, and no one should ever feel pressured to have sex of any kind with anybody.

However, I also think that people’s desires are often influenced by (and even dictated by) an intersectionality of cultural messages which include transphobia, transmisogyny, racism, classism, sexism, homophobia, ableism, and xenophobia, among many other factors. This is a topic that many within the feminist movements and womanist movements have discussed in terms of racism, shade-ism, classim, and ableism, and is also being discussed now in reference to transphobia and transmisogyny. I believe that many cis queer women do not see queer trans women as viable sexual partners in large part due to the cultural messages that exist, both within queer culture and mainstream/straight culture, that tell us that trans women’s bodies are inherently undesirable except as a fetish for cis straight men. I also think that it is rooted in the belief that trans women are not women, which is transphobic and transmisogynist.

Trans women across the Anglophone world have identified these issues in our lives and are now engaging more and more in organizing around this. The workshop at the Pleasure and Possibilities Conference is a safer space for trans women to get together, name our experiences of oppression and exclusion, and discuss ways of changing culture to break down these barriers – as fits with the theme of the conference which is centred around overcoming the sexual barriers various groups of marginalized women experience.

From: [redacted lesbian]
Sent: March-12-12 1:59 PM
To: [redacted trans]
Subject: Re: What’s the cotton ceiling?
Thanks. So, just to make sure I understand this, a trans woman with a penis, and who has no desire to have a sex change, is not male bodied – correct?

On Mon, Mar 12, 2012 at 2:02 PM, [redacted trans] wrote:
There is nothing inherently male about a woman’s body, unless she identified things about it as male herself. So, no, I do not consider trans women with penises to be male-bodied, unless that is how they identify.

From: [redacted lesbian]
Sent: March-12-12 2:04 PM
To: [redacted trans]
Subject: Re: What’s the cotton ceiling?
This is seriously problematic for lesbians. What you are saying is lesbians – who desire sex with females – are somehow bigoted for that desire, no? That’s exactly what nontrans males say to us.
Anyway, take care, [redacted lesbian]

On Mon, Mar 12, 2012 at 2:18 PM, [redacted trans] wrote:
That’s a really nonsensical way of interpreting that. Please don’t put words in my mouth.

I have not actually been speaking about lesbian-identified women specifically, though they are some of the women who are within the category of queer women.

Trans women are female. When our female-ness and womanhood is denied, as you keep doing repeatedly, that is transphobic and transmisogynist. As I said earlier, all people’s desires are influenced by an intersection of cultural messages that determine those desires. Cultural messages that code trans women’s bodies as male are transphobic, and those messages influence people’s desires. So cis queer women who are attracted to other queer women may not view trans women as viable sexual partners because they have internalized the message that trans women are somehow male.

The comparison to what cis males say also makes no sense. What trans women are saying is that we are women, and thus should be considered women sexually, and thus be considered viable partners for women who are attracted to women. What cis males are saying is that queer women shouldn’t be exclusively attracted to women, which is completely different.

From: [redacted lesbian]
Sent: March-12-12 2:21 PM
To: [redacted trans]
Subject: Re: What’s the cotton ceiling?
I don’t want to put words in your mouth. I want to understand what you are saying. Trans women may be women, but they are not female. A penis is not a female organ.

“What trans women are saying is that we are women, and thus should be considered women sexually, and thus be considered viable partners for women who are attracted to women. What cis males are saying is that queer women shouldn’t be exclusively attracted to women, which is completely different. ”

It’s not completely different to lesbians, and it’s not completely different at all. Lesbians are sexually attracted to females. This does not include trans women with penises.

What you say makes sense only if you believe the fiction that people with penises are female. Correct?

On Mon, Mar 12, 2012 at 2:23 PM, [redacted trans] wrote:
Trans women’s bodies are female bodies, whether or not we have penises.

And I’m done engaging in this conversation. You are clearly attempting to bait me in order to find some way of slandering me and my work online, and, frankly, I have better things to do with my time.

On Mon, Mar 12, 2012 at 2:27 PM, [redacted lesbian] wrote:
I am not trying to bait you. I was trying to get you to make this statement: Trans women’s bodies are female bodies, whether or not we have penises.
That’s bullshit. And that bullshit means lesbians are expected to be sexually accessible to trans women with penises or face being labeled a bigot.
Best, [redacted lesbian]

from factcheckme.wordpress.com/2012/03/13/the-cotton-ceiling-really/

Either you think this is bonkers, on par with telling you that trees can walk, or you do not.

This BBC podcast is well worth a listen: www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p09yk7dh

Nolan talks to Dr David Bell about his experience at the UK's leading gender clinic.

Ok so I feel no better

Cheer up! Thousands, millions of people have come to see this just as you did. Many saw it a year ago, or two years ago or four years ago. (It was about 4 for me, IIRC). A few saw it seven years ago, or even ten.

A very few feminists predicted it in the 1970s.

If you're seeing it now, in October 2021, you are going to have a much, much shorter wait to see it crumble. Lots of people are now asking questions that should have been asked a long time ago. This is a remarkable month.

Look around the other threads about the Netflix protest or the LGB Alliance or the Nolan Investigates podcast to see it crumbling. You're joining this fight just as the tide is turning. Enjoy it!

And I'm going to recommend this new background piece. Lots of good up-to-date information with links in it.

Studying the True Face of Gender Ideology

@sleepyshiftworker

I'm mid 30s, mother, divorced, paramedic, bisexual.

I consider myself a feminist. I'm a mother of both genders.

I am confused by everything. What is gender now? What is sex? I don't understand?

When I was at school there was one gay lad, now my daughter comes home telling me 5 people are pansexual, two trans etc and I have to go and google what these things mean. Clearly my head is under a rock.

Please educate me.
I listen to the guilty feminist podcast and had to google what CIS meant the other day.

The guilty feminist … “I’m a feminist but I believe that men can miraculously turn into women just because they say so”. Also, I assume you mean you have a child of each sex, as gender is a made up concept, not a material reality.

Firstly, stop listening to the guilty feminist - they believe a man can become a woman just by uttering the phrase "I feel like a woman".

The 'break it down for me' mumsnet thread is the best one to read. Stay on these boards and keep talking. It's really frightening what's happening when we are are not able to use the collective noun for ourselves that actually describe us.

@NecessaryScene great post - it does seem like the tide is definitely starting to turn.