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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Educate me. Please.

51 replies

sleepyshiftworker · 20/10/2021 20:39

I'm mid 30s, mother, divorced, paramedic, bisexual.

I consider myself a feminist. I'm a mother of both genders.

I am confused by everything. What is gender now? What is sex? I don't understand?

When I was at school there was one gay lad, now my daughter comes home telling me 5 people are pansexual, two trans etc and I have to go and google what these things mean. Clearly my head is under a rock.

Please educate me.
I listen to the guilty feminist podcast and had to google what CIS meant the other day.

OP posts:
Alektopteryx · 21/10/2021 16:12

Once you see it, you can't unsee it. It was some time ago for me, about 2016, but I still remember the confusion and anger and disbelief of the first glimpse of what this meant for women and girls, particularly lesbians. It's a headfuck, but the women's movements that are growing out of it globally are beautiful and a joy to behold.

morningstaronline.co.uk/article/f/powerhouse-new-feminism

myohmywhatawonderfulday · 21/10/2021 16:14

Yes there is a change in the air.

The only Lord I know (who is in the House of Lords) and who I had a conversation about this about 18 months ago knew it was bollocks. It was one of the few times I was really glad we have a House of Lords as a check and measure so any old guff can't just get passed into law.

NecessaryScene · 21/10/2021 16:22

Reading that "TERF" thread that got bumped overnight, from 2014, still on the top page, my heart aches for the women writing there. Very few of whom are still with us on this board.

Everything they're writing could have been written this year. Everything was already happening, in some corners, and those women were in some of the places where it was becoming visible.

They're despairing, and almost no-one else around them believes that it's happening. And they've got 4 more years before the first "adult human female" billboard. 5 more years before JKR. 6 more years before LGB Alliance. 7 more years before the BBC takes it seriously.

But we got there.

PUUUUULLLLLLLLL!!!!!!!!

Waitwhat23 · 21/10/2021 16:30

@necessaryscene I was just thinking about those posters too. Before my time, but I've seen them mentioned by long standing posters. They knew what was coming but were hounded out, deleted and shouted down.

ItsOctober3rd · 21/10/2021 16:41

So following the logic in the emails cited by @PurgatoryOfPotholes a lesbian transwoman who did not consider other transwomen as viable sexual partners would themselves be being transphobic?

NecessaryScene · 21/10/2021 16:42

a lesbian transwoman who did not consider other transwomen as viable sexual partners would themselves be being transphobic?

No, that would just be them avoiding triggering their dysphoria.

Do try to keep up. Wink

NecessaryScene · 21/10/2021 16:44

Rest assured there's always a reason why the toddler trans/NB person gets to do whatever they want, and a reason why the "cis" person has to do whatever the trans/NB person wants.

The reasons used at any given point and on any topic don't have to ever be consistent.

Waitwhat23 · 21/10/2021 16:53

See this is where it all gets a bit muddled.

A transwoman = male. Not a value judgement, the reality.

A 'male who is a lesbian' (not a real thing by the way) = heterosexual male.

If they are not attracted to other transwomen (males who could be either homosexual or heterosexual) = then you would assume that in this brave new world that that is transphobic.

But you have to bear in mind that the definition of homosexuality has been changed by Stonewall to be same gender attraction, not same sex attraction. Presumably to get around this shit show.

But that is how we're got into the type of exchange that Purgatory quoted. Where lesbians are being told that they are bigoted for not wanting to have sex with males. Because same gender attraction.

senua · 21/10/2021 17:40

Rest assured there's always a reason why the toddler trans/NB person gets to do whatever they want, and a reason why the "cis" person has to do whatever the trans/NB person wants.
Thankfully this is not quite so true anymore. There was an important court case* recently which established that we are all allowed to have beliefs: they can believe what they want and we can believe something different. They cannot enforce their belief on others.

Remember this when someone, including your teens, tries to shut you down.
Mrsjamin · 21/10/2021 17:52

@NecessaryScene the time it's taken to get this far is heartbreaking, I totally get you. Pretty much everything in that Nolan podcast has been covered by mumsnetters in the last 7 years, I'm both thoroughly proud and depressed of that achievement.

ItsOctober3rd · 21/10/2021 18:07

Ok have I got this right
-Transwoman not seen as viable sexual partner by lesbian - lesbian is a bigot
-same transwoman does not see other transwomen as viable sexual partners - transwoman is not a bigot

PurgatoryOfPotholes · 21/10/2021 18:24

@ItsOctober3rd

Ok have I got this right -Transwoman not seen as viable sexual partner by lesbian - lesbian is a bigot -same transwoman does not see other transwomen as viable sexual partners - transwoman is not a bigot
Exactly.

You may find this link relevant
twitter.com/ripx4nutmeg/status/1449689404889513989?t=JoDxtEr-_ewTf72P8z29zg&s=19

RedDogsBeg · 21/10/2021 18:30

@ItsOctober3rd

Ok have I got this right -Transwoman not seen as viable sexual partner by lesbian - lesbian is a bigot -same transwoman does not see other transwomen as viable sexual partners - transwoman is not a bigot
That's about the size of it, yes.

Special rules apply to special people.

Doyoumind · 21/10/2021 19:25

The 'triggers my dysphoria' excuse is so pathetic. If it were anything to do with dysphoria, wouldn't seeing a fully female body - something they can never have themselves - be more triggering?

Alektopteryx · 21/10/2021 19:31

Maybe Doyoumind, but it also gives them a stiffy so they ignore the dysphoria.

Doyoumind · 21/10/2021 19:35

@Alektopteryx

Maybe Doyoumind, but it also gives them a stiffy so they ignore the dysphoria.
Having a hard-on doesn't trigger their dysphoria either! Only another male presenting as a woman does that job Hmm
sleepyshiftworker · 22/10/2021 17:03

Ok so I think I'm getting the idea

I've always considered myself a leftie, liberal, feminist woman.

It doesn't sit well with me that a man / male bodied human could use a woman's changing room / my space because he "identifies as...."

I don't like that. Am I a bigot?
I want a chaperone at the doctors. I want a safe space to change at the pool. I want privacy. I don't want my teen age daughter being watched changing.

OP posts:
WarriorN · 22/10/2021 17:16

I listen to the guilty feminist podcast and had to google what CIS meant the other day.

Yeah, just go back to women's hour. On Emma's days.

I find the GF eye rolly without getting into the Cis crap.

WarriorN · 22/10/2021 17:22

@ItsOctober3rd

Ok have I got this right -Transwoman not seen as viable sexual partner by lesbian - lesbian is a bigot -same transwoman does not see other transwomen as viable sexual partners - transwoman is not a bigot

Trans by Helen Joyce is really good at explaining many ins and outs (literally) around these dynamics and why they happen (misogyny aside.)

WarriorN · 22/10/2021 17:25

No you're not a bigot.

This is an entirely manufactured phenomenon born from homophobia and rigid sex / gender stereotypes, along with a smattering of fetish.

The whole concept of trans has made a lot of people a lot of money.

This is an extract from Trans, the part Just before this is equally interesting from an anthropological perspective.

quillette.com/2021/09/07/the-truth-about-autogynephilia/

VladmirsPoutine · 22/10/2021 21:04

Tbh I thought I had a relatively good grasp of things but not too long ago I was on a thread where it wasn't immediately clear to me that transman written with or without a space can mean two very different things. So really I don't know where to go from that.

1Week · 22/10/2021 21:23

That sounds confusing Vladimir.

The only talk I remember seeing about space/no space was trans people wanting the space to be used. So 'trans' becomes the adjective to the noun 'woman', rather than 'transwoman' used as a separate noun.

I prefer the second myself, as males who've transitioned don't become any sort of woman.

Vaginasaurus · 22/10/2021 21:39

It’s so they can say that “cis women”, “trans women”, “black women”, “young women”, and “old women” are all different kinds of women!

VladmirsPoutine · 23/10/2021 09:37

1Week That's what it is! I'd been using both interchangeably not least because of my auto correct.

LonginesPrime · 23/10/2021 21:08

Am I a bigot?

Well, Stonewall’s definition of transphobia is:

The fear or dislike of someone based on the fact they are trans, including denying their gender identity or refusing to accept it.

So wanting a chaperone at the doctors is fine, but requesting a biologically female one is transphobic, according to Stonewall (who pressure the NHS into using their definitions and policies). Pointing out that the female chaperone you've requested is actually male would also be transphobic, as would querying whether you're entitled to any sex-based protections as a woman any more. You're not. Because even just believing that sex is real is transphobic according to Stonewall.

If you think that in some situations, a person's biological sex is more important than their own inner feeling of gender, then you are transphobic according to the Stonewall definition.

Police forces, town councils and law firms advising the government all accept this definition of transphobia as correct, as they're pressured by Stonewall's Workplace Equality Index to adopt it and actively promote it, including in their interactions with the general public.

On the plus side, the belief that biological sex is real has been confirmed as protected under the Equality Act in the Maya Forstater case, which means that women are, in theory at least, able to talk about their own biological sex without fear of discrimination in some circumstances.

However, the practical reality is that Stonewall's Workplace Equality Index needs to be demolished before women will feel properly safe to discuss the issues that affect them, as everyone, from their bank to their kids' teachers have been told by Stonewall that women and gay people don't technically exist and that thinking otherwise or even simply questioning this narrative is bigoted. And these people will continue to believe that as long as public bodies and their commercial advisors continue to view a ranking on Stonewall’s Workplace Equality Index as the gold standard for inclusion.