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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Margaret Atwood

567 replies

MummBRaaarrrTheEverLeaking · 19/10/2021 14:22

twitter.com/MargaretAtwood/status/1450429768067846145?t=8q-A8MlvzZsx6pt4Vu1_LA&s=19

Has retweeted an article from the Toronto Star "why can't we say woman anymore" and bloody hell are they coming for the latest witch burning in the comments!

Ranging from disappointment to the usual sweary abuse. I thought oh how long till the capitulation begins, turns out I didn't have to wait long!

She's following it up with retweets about 'we can say people when it's accurate and inclusive' and then defending the article because the writer isn't "a terf"???

Not really sure what she's trying to achieve here, anyone?

OP posts:
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19
TreXX · 19/10/2021 20:24

@Blessex

What do we do? Do we rescue her or leave her to burn?!
I think a nod of acknowledgement is sufficient?
Blessex · 19/10/2021 20:26

Agree. Am going in. Wish me luck.

2Rebecca · 19/10/2021 20:27

Rescue. I doubt she ever really believed being a woman was just an identity anyone could claim. I have no idea why she signed the letter against JK Rowling though. Jeanette Winterson similarly amazes me for not speaking out. She likes to play with gender stereotypes but she also believes being female matters and lesbians are female. I'm quite forgiving. The war is made up of many battles. We need people to publicly move to our side to win.

EmbarrassingHadrosaurus · 19/10/2021 20:27

@oldwomanwhoruns

It's a tough one, *@Blessex*. But she IS a woman, so my vote is for clemancy and rescue. Any more votes??
Gottman would say that Atwood needs to be supported and congratulated.

I know that this will seem spurned if she recants but coolers need to know there is a community ready to acknowledge and receive them.

Floisme · 19/10/2021 20:29

It's nothing to do with forgiveness or sympathy as far as I'm concerned. It's not like I'm ever going to be her friend. But I'm pragmatic. Every other week there's a thread on here asking whether or not the tide is turning, well I'm sorry but, if it really is going to turn - and in Canada of all places - then this is what's needed.

Mollyollydolly · 19/10/2021 20:29

I'd welcome her really, it just pisses me off, but I do realise we need to do so, just cant get my head around how it takes so long to see the light.

SelfPortraitWithPterodactyl · 19/10/2021 20:34

The war is made up of many battles. We need people to publicly move to our side to win. This. And most of us were unthinking #BeKinders once, right?

And also, c'mon, she did write The Handmaid's Tale, didn't she? Of course we want her.

DevonTF · 19/10/2021 20:37

I loved her work when I was younger, Cats Eye was one of my favourite books. But have felt let down by her for years. My only hope is that all those women shouting TWAW are starting to see the reality of this on women.

But, bet she will be apologising any minute. The TRAs / MRAs are vicious - she will back down

Anyway - she called us Terfs

ArabellaScott · 19/10/2021 20:47

I vote we extend help to her if we can.

She's having the proverbial arse-handing before the Dawning of Realisation. It can be a painful awakening.

I would like to see her apologise to JKR. She's effectively echoed JK's tweet about 'wimpund', after all.

Gumbomambo · 19/10/2021 20:47

I think she will apologise but I have found it really unpleasant to see the pile on. I wouldn’t kick her whilst she is down either, the more people that see the sunshine and wake up the better. Someone like her who signed that letter and was fully TWAW turning sides would open a lot of eyes. Think how many people woke up when JKR was so publicly attacked?

2319inprogress · 19/10/2021 20:49

I would put my hand out to her to pull her up - I'm furious with her but I want to win the war & I won't leave a woman behind enemy lines.

NotTerfNorCis · 19/10/2021 20:49

Been reading some of the TRA responses. Mind-blowing. 'I always hated her.' 'This has finally shown the world what a shitty person she is.' The vindictiveness after her years of being so careful! Nothing but total compliance can appease them. I hope she comes out fighting - so far she is sticking to her guns.

1Week · 19/10/2021 20:51

I'd day she'd weather the Twitter storm.

Buy its all the right thinkers amongst the great and good of Canada that will really make an impact on her.

It's only my own feeling, but she likes the accolades, the respect, the head nodding deference - wouldn't we all?
But I wonder how she feels as an older woman in that milieu. Not easy to not only out yourself as a Terf,Shock, but old fashioned, irrelevant, out of touch.
That would sting, I think, at the state funded arts galas of Canada.

ArabellaScott · 19/10/2021 20:54

Hm. She has not wandered into this debate unthinkingly.

Gastonia · 19/10/2021 20:57

And most of us were unthinking #BeKinders once, right?
So true Grin

EmbarrassingHadrosaurus · 19/10/2021 21:19

It's definitely an opportunity to publicise the existence of a golden bridge even if MA isn't ready to take it just yet. The existence of a golden bridge might be a comfort to others who aren't ready to take it just yet but can see the time coming when they have to make a choice.

Twenty-five hundred years ago, Sun Tzu, an ancient Chinese military general, strategist and philosopher, is said to have penned The Art of War. It remains a masterpiece of military strategy…Sun Tzu counseled military leaders to build a “golden bridge” for an opponent to retreat across. Without an escape route to retreat, your opponent will engage in battle and fight like a caged and cornered tiger. You can avoid battling the tiger and even win the war if you give your opponent a graceful, face-saving way out. Face-saving is an important part of the negotiation process and is vital to building a golden bridge. Building a golden bridge requires that you involve your opponent in the solution and that you work to satisfy your opponent’s unmet needs. A golden bridge makes it easy for your opponent to say yes.

www.smithcurrie.com/publications/common-sense-contract-law/when-faced-with-no-build-a-golden-bridge-to-resolve-a-dispute/pdf/

oldwomanwhoruns · 19/10/2021 21:26

But I just don't see a 'golden bridge', @EmbarrassingHadrosaurus??
Not in this context?
There's 'Sorry, I was blinded by kindness'

But don't be expecting us to say 'ok, you can have HALF of our private women's spaces'

I just can't see a golden bridge anywhere

What did you have in mind??

UnfinishedBunting · 19/10/2021 21:28

I still struggle with the cognitive dissonance of having read the Handmaid's tale, then hearing some of Margaret Atwood's views.

Everyone can change their mind about things though - your beliefs should be iteratively re-examined and re-shaped over time.

1Week · 19/10/2021 21:28

@Gastonia

And most of us were unthinking #BeKinders once, right? So true Grin
Yeah but we're not writers and thinkers who've been specialising in the lives of women and girls for 50 years. I get she has never wanted to attach a label to herself (irony!) But she's intelligent and perceptive and has seen how the world operates. Most of us BeKinders are busy with everyday stuff, and probably know a really nice transwoman or more likely, a really nice woman with a really nice trans kid. We kind of assumed that it was all in hand, and just because we didn't understand gender ideology, somebody in authority must have thought it through. But her entire shtick is examining society, dissecting the pieces, extrapolating from that.

I just think, as I above, it is exceedingly nice in the autumn of your years, to be the revered grande dame at the court.

That said, the truth isn't ours and if she wishes to stand up for it, I'll be happy. Better late than never.

ArabellaScott · 19/10/2021 21:30

Everyone can change their mind about things though - your beliefs should be iteratively re-examined and re-shaped over time.

Yes. Healthy and sensible. Panta rhei and all that.

KimikosNightmare · 19/10/2021 21:30

@MadameKali

Margaret Atwood? The woman who literally wrote the book on sex based discrimination, before deciding to throw the vagina people under the bus, finally gets a glimpse of what's been going on and what she's been complicit in, whispers an objection and gets piled on? Oh dear. What a pity. Never mind
I've never liked her or her writing. Never understood why she was ever thought of as a feminist hero. She just seemed to revel so much in piling misery on her female characters.
EmbarrassingHadrosaurus · 19/10/2021 21:39

@oldwomanwhoruns

But I just don't see a 'golden bridge', *@EmbarrassingHadrosaurus*?? Not in this context? There's 'Sorry, I was blinded by kindness'

But don't be expecting us to say 'ok, you can have HALF of our private women's spaces'

I just can't see a golden bridge anywhere

What did you have in mind??

I've tried discussing what a golden bridge would look like but there isn't usually much engagement on what it might be.

The golden bridge is for people like Atwood who stop the TWAW mantra and realise that the women they have previously denounced as Terven actually have a point that reasonable people share. Maybe they do start to understand the wider social and political consequences for women. Right now, hey might not come out as GC but perhaps they don't join in the ritual denunciations of people like JKR? And over time this shifts - and people see what does/not happen to them.

At present, she can keep mumbling TWAW and keep the sign on her fruit and vegetable stall*, or she can signal that she is undergoing a shift of some sort.

Vaclav Havel: The slogan is really a sign, and as such it contains a subliminal but very definite message. Verbally, it might be expressed this way: "I, the greengrocer XY, live here and I know what I must do. I behave in the manner expected of me. I can be depended upon and am beyond reproach. I am obedient and therefore I have the right to be left in peace." This message, of course, has an addressee: it is directed above, to the greengrocer's superior, and at the same time it is a shield that protects the greengrocer from potential informers. The slogan's real meaning, therefore, is rooted firmly in the greengrocer's existence. It reflects his vital interests. But what are those vital interests?*

Let us take note: if the greengrocer had been instructed to display the slogan "I am afraid and therefore unquestioningly obedient;' he would not be nearly as indifferent to its semantics, even though the statement would reflect the truth. The greengrocer would be embarrassed and ashamed to put such an unequivocal statement of his own degradation in the shop window, and quite naturally so, for he is a human being and thus has a sense of his own dignity. To overcome this complication, his expression of loyalty must take the form of a sign which, at least on its textual surface, indicates a level of disinterested conviction. It must allow the greengrocer to say, "What's wrong with the workers of the world uniting?" Thus the sign helps the greengrocer to conceal from himself the low foundations of his obedience, at the same time concealing the low foundations of power. It hides them behind the facade of something high. And that something is ideology.

hac.bard.edu/amor-mundi/the-power-of-the-powerless-vaclav-havel-2011-12-23

1Week · 19/10/2021 21:45

" Sorry, I was blinded by kindness" seems like it will be the excuse all right.

Still considerably more compassionate than you !

Blessex · 19/10/2021 21:52

It is like watching a fly caught in a spiders web trying to escape. And keep getting poisoned.

I know I said it upthread but I cannot help thinking of the analogy now.

Oh what a tangled web we we weave, when first we practice to deceive.

Thing is I don’t think she gets it because she says - read it she is not a terf. She doesn’t get it does she?