Active discussions

Meet the Other Phone. A phone that grows with your child.

Meet the Other Phone.
A phone that grows with your child.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Talk
Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Feminism: chat

Original poster

This has really upset me

104 replies

Tittyfilarious81 · 18/10/2021 19:58

Sorry I don't normally post on this board so hope it's the right place, but this upsets me so much. I am a mother and proud to be called a mother / mum I feel like everything about being female is being stripped away piece by piece where the voice of the few is so loud now that the voice of the many is ignored
Scotland's civil service deleted 'MOTHER' from maternity policy mol.im/a/10103811 via dailym.ai/android

OP posts:
freudien · 18/10/2021 23:47

Just to play devils advocate I'm going to leave this here:

www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(19)32764-3/fulltext

It provides a very good outline of sex from a biological viewpoint.

I think you have the wrong end of the stick if you think you can't call yourself a mother, you can. It's just that transgender men can have a uterus and give birth, but they are men legally.

PastMyBestBeforeDate · 18/10/2021 23:57

They're attacking our rights by undermining the very identities of womanhood. Do get angry.

TwoSpirit · 18/10/2021 23:58

No transgender identifying men have given birth in Scotland Hmm

Franca123 · 19/10/2021 00:12

A family member brought it up with me for the first time tonight. She thinks it's all nonsense. People are getting bolder.

ErrolTheDragon · 19/10/2021 00:23

I put this link on another thread but it's pertinent here too - Melanie Reid in the Scotland section of the Times. The first part is on this issue.

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/failing-to-use-the-word-woman-puts-lives-at-risk-bz0s5wdl3?shareToken=f0d41f9b95a45808b5296237fd86e4a2

But do read the last part too...it's lyrics of a new song from Peggy Seeger which 'sizzle with relevance'.

Skyline24 · 19/10/2021 00:31

I feel like the world has gone crazy! I am sick and tired of hearing about this gender business. It also plants seeds in children's minds that you have options as to what gender you can be which then leads to a hell of a lot of confusion! It's an absolute joke!

freudien · 19/10/2021 00:31

@PastMyBestBeforeDate

They're attacking our rights by undermining the very identities of womanhood. Do get angry.
The original article is about 'people having a baby'. This is language to include transgender males, that is, those who were born female but transitioned to male later on in life. What rights are being taken away? Is your notion of womanhood so fragile that it is bound by Scottish employment policy?
AssassinatedBeauty · 19/10/2021 00:40

No one born female has ever transitioned to become male. That's a science fiction. They no doubt have had surgery, take medication and dress/behave to present in a way typically associated with men and masculinity, but they were born and remain female.

TableFlowerss · 19/10/2021 00:43

It’s ok OP, you’re still a mother, always have been and will always continue to be. Everyone knows what a mother and the definition of the term and no one will ever forget. They can remove it all the like but we’re still mothers and always will be. X

Totallydefeated · 19/10/2021 00:47

freudien

PastMyBestBeforeDate
They're attacking our rights by undermining the very identities of womanhood. Do get angry.

The original article is about 'people having a baby'. This is language to include transgender males, that is, those who were born female but transitioned to male later on in life.
What rights are being taken away?
Is your notion of womanhood so fragile that* it is bound by Scottish employment policy?

What rights would be taken away from transmen by reading the word ‘mother’ on literature that refers to pregnancy and childbirth?

Enough4me · 19/10/2021 00:58

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk guidelines.

Cailleach1 · 19/10/2021 02:20

@TwoSpirit

No transgender identifying men have given birth in Scotland Hmm
Funnily enough, that is not only true of men in Scotland. No transgender identifying men have ever given birth, in the whole wide world.
Torvean · 19/10/2021 03:22

[quote Tittyfilarious81]Sorry I don't normally post on this board so hope it's the right place, but this upsets me so much. I am a mother and proud to be called a mother / mum I feel like everything about being female is being stripped away piece by piece where the voice of the few is so loud now that the voice of the many is ignored
Scotland's civil service deleted 'MOTHER' from maternity policy mol.im/a/10103811 via dailym.ai/android[/quote]
Yet Angela Constance , rereferred to herself as a mother at Q time. Use what words you want. The SNP/ Raving Greens can do one.

SageHoney · 19/10/2021 06:49

The original article is about 'people having a baby'. This is language to include transgender males, that is, those who were born female but transitioned to male later on in life. What rights are being taken away? Is your notion of womanhood so fragile that it is bound by Scottish employment policy?

It's government guidance for employers running a business in Scotland. Statutory Maternity/Paternity/Parental leave falls under a reserved competency, so policy has to align with UK-wide law. It's most important that the guide be clear and accurate and direct the reader to the applicable section of the gov.uk doc, which this fails to do. Of course documents should be inclusive of everyone who is impacted, and that may mean being gender-neutral, but not at the expense of usability.

"Having a baby" is ambiguous, especially as "Maternity Leave" refers to an "employee having a baby" and "Paternity Leave" to a situation where "they and their partner are having a baby". Very likely both partners are not pregnant at once, especially not with the same baby, so "having a baby" /= being pregnant.

In order to access statutory Maternity leave and pay in Scotland (and the wider UK) you must be pregnant/have recently given birth. Biodads, spouses, partners, and other parents-to-be can apply for Paternity benefits including some specific options for adoption and surrogacy. When the language manages to obscure that distinction - why? why not just say "a pregnant employee"? - it's not useful to the intended end user.

Normally, people might just assume government incompetence, but the FOIs requested by Nolan have brought this to public attention. IF it 's true that the language was changed because ScotGov was taking unvetted direction from a lobbying group (and paying for it) in return for unrelated benefit, that's concerning no matter what group it is and what change was made.

I don't have a "notion of womanhood" and don't know any women who do (it sounds a bit male gaze-y) but I do have a belief that my government should be somewhat competent and transparent and that the public should hold it accountable if there is evidence of corruption.

FreeBritnee · 19/10/2021 07:00

Keep talking to other women as a starting point. We are so ground down and busy I honestly think many of us have no clue what’s going on.

Original poster
Tittyfilarious81 · 19/10/2021 07:51

Thanks again for the replies and for the links and information that's been put up for me to look at ,it's very much appreciated

OP posts:
Fetarabbit · 19/10/2021 07:55

@freudien

Just to play devils advocate I'm going to leave this here:

www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(19)32764-3/fulltext

It provides a very good outline of sex from a biological viewpoint.

I think you have the wrong end of the stick if you think you can't call yourself a mother, you can. It's just that transgender men can have a uterus and give birth, but they are men legally.

If they give birth they are mothers. The gender they align with doesn't override the biological reality. I agree with having their pronouns respected or whatever else they demand, but not at the expense or erasing the word mother, or with it being seen as bigoted to recognise the reality.
Enough4me · 19/10/2021 07:56

My last opinion was removed, but essentially OP read the news away from the articles that seek to appease the always dissatisfied group, listen to the radio, talk with people. You'll see that in reality in most cases mother is used as is father and women alongside men.

Yes some organisations are letting women down, but others are not and yes Robert Winston's factual view was questioned but he still clearly made his point, which resonates with the wider public's view.

When bigger issues arise it's an own goal as members of the public take note and disagree. The word mother is not disappearing according to the wider public.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 19/10/2021 08:15

It's just that transgender men can have a uterus and give birth, but they are men legally.

No they aren't, only a tiny group of these female people who have GRCs are "legally male" and then not in all cases.

Enough4me · 19/10/2021 09:25

Back to reality...who is going to police every person to ensure that the word mother is not spoken?

Exactly, it's not going to happen. Everyone is born by a mother.

freudien · 19/10/2021 10:06

@Fetarabbit
The "biological reality" is what the article in the Lancet is talking about.
Why blindly follow the Daily Mail but not even take a look at the medical literature?
Why can't there be a nuanced debate on this?

Ereshkigalangcleg · 19/10/2021 10:11

What do you think these issues of sex development have to do with an FTM trans person wanting their child's birth certificate to inaccurately record them as the male parent when they were the mother?

freudien · 19/10/2021 10:12

@SageHoney

The original article is about 'people having a baby'. This is language to include transgender males, that is, those who were born female but transitioned to male later on in life. What rights are being taken away? Is your notion of womanhood so fragile that it is bound by Scottish employment policy?

It's government guidance for employers running a business in Scotland. Statutory Maternity/Paternity/Parental leave falls under a reserved competency, so policy has to align with UK-wide law. It's most important that the guide be clear and accurate and direct the reader to the applicable section of the gov.uk doc, which this fails to do. Of course documents should be inclusive of everyone who is impacted, and that may mean being gender-neutral, but not at the expense of usability.

"Having a baby" is ambiguous, especially as "Maternity Leave" refers to an "employee having a baby" and "Paternity Leave" to a situation where "they and their partner are having a baby". Very likely both partners are not pregnant at once, especially not with the same baby, so "having a baby" /= being pregnant.

In order to access statutory Maternity leave and pay in Scotland (and the wider UK) you must be pregnant/have recently given birth. Biodads, spouses, partners, and other parents-to-be can apply for Paternity benefits including some specific options for adoption and surrogacy. When the language manages to obscure that distinction - why? why not just say "a pregnant employee"? - it's not useful to the intended end user.

Normally, people might just assume government incompetence, but the FOIs requested by Nolan have brought this to public attention. IF it 's true that the language was changed because ScotGov was taking unvetted direction from a lobbying group (and paying for it) in return for unrelated benefit, that's concerning no matter what group it is and what change was made.

I don't have a "notion of womanhood" and don't know any women who do (it sounds a bit male gaze-y) but I do have a belief that my government should be somewhat competent and transparent and that the public should hold it accountable if there is evidence of corruption.

I agree, you're completely right that this should not be at the expense of a underhanded lobbying. But you also talk about usability - the language you are using here only refers to biological parents and those giving birth. So that leaves out adoptive parents, which surely means that the language we use should be inclusive?
Ereshkigalangcleg · 19/10/2021 10:13

The law is that it's possible to apply for a gender recognition certificate which will mean that you are classed as the opposite sex for most purposes. Not all. It's a legal fiction, originally brought in to get around the ban on same sex marriage.

Fetarabbit · 19/10/2021 10:13

[quote freudien]@Fetarabbit
The "biological reality" is what the article in the Lancet is talking about.
Why blindly follow the Daily Mail but not even take a look at the medical literature?
Why can't there be a nuanced debate on this?
[/quote]
Because it defies logic and science. Biological men cannot give birth. Full stop. Biological women who feel dysphoric about their sex in reaction to their 'gender' which is possibly caused by biology still have female bodies. They can have surgery, take hormones and present as men, and be respected by being addressed appropriately etc, but they are not men.