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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Creeping feeling I don't belong in this new world

127 replies

MothsAreSadButterflies · 18/10/2021 16:41

It's been hard lockdown no doubt that's added to depression but mind keeps returning to this new world

I've tried to understand it. The ones who fully transition I have less fear of. Their commitment jeans they just fully believe they are opposite sex.

But my mind simply cannot understand trans people who say they opposite sex but are obviously not. It's lying. It feels like gaslighting. Like I am losing my mind. It feels abusive and menacing. Bewildering. Faced with young people especially who demand you to go against your eyes, your senses, your ability to perceive sex. And if you don't you are hateful, sackable, evil.

Cancelled.

In this new world I have no place

OP posts:
lazylinguist · 21/10/2021 12:09

LGBT people exist, get over it.

Ah yes, the hilariously disingenuous 'You are debating our existence/don't think we exist' claim. Nobody thinks trans people don't exist. A lot of trans rights activists seem to think that same-sex attracted people don't exist though. Or that the sexuality whose rights they've long fought for is inherently 'transphobic'.

MarleneDietrichsSmile · 21/10/2021 12:13

Yes, we did not say that and we do not say lgbt+ people don’t exist, nor that they should not have the same rights as everyone

I do however want to be able to discuss how this new world impacts on women and women’s rights

Artichokeleaves · 21/10/2021 12:16

LGB includes homosexual people. Get over it.

(I could keep this up all day. It's a bit boring, but an easy post.)

TheUndeadLovelinessOfDemons · 21/10/2021 12:19

I'm genderfluid. It's impossible for me to transition. 🤷‍♂️

LastSummerHere · 21/10/2021 12:29

@MargaritaPie

LGBT people exist, get over it.

Who said otherwise?

AlfonsoTheDinosaur · 21/10/2021 12:37

@MargaritaPie, LGB people exist. Get over it.

MamsellMarie · 21/10/2021 12:55

Like you, he frames, and feels that the loss of his privilege is oppressive. It feels like grief. It feels awful.
No it doesn't. What are you talking about. I don't feel a loss of privilege - nor do I feel grief - I just feel annoyed at all the concentration on a few people who think they are repressed. There's so much that needs fixing in the world which is not anything to do with trans people's rights and privileges, so much - we could be putting the effort into fixing the myriad of other wrongs in the world.

A step back is needed here, I think. The fact remains is that trans people have always been with us, for as long as there has been recorded human history (the Priesthood of the Sumarian Goddess Inanna, for example, were non-binary and trans, and they lived and worked over 8,000 years ago). In the movement for queer rights, trans people have always played an active role. There's nothing 'new' here, there's just greater awareness, and greater movement to have trans people's human rights recognised, and with that, the social-conservative push-back.
Trans rights are recognised and being prioritised over other members of society. We didn't change meanings of words for gay people, or blind people or poor people but trans demand changing words and meanings. We don't use some words which cause offence but we don't remove them from our language/ change their meaning, only trans demand that.

You're feeling threatened, but all that's being challenged is your worldview. Every trans woman before she medically transitions presents masculine, and driving some sort of arbitrary standard of femininity and then using that as an argument for denying the trans community civil, political, and human rights makes us monsters.
No see above you are changing the english language. YOu have the same rights as everyone else plus a few more to protect you more than eg women. Why are you special. Trans have always been with us then lets just get on and stop demanding special treatment.

Try to parse, within, what it is about the existence of queer people that makes you feel so threatened. Those answers lie within, not externally. And I know that once I started asking those difficult questions I was less likely to lash out and hurt others.
Not threatened just annoyed - let's get on with saving the planet and will you please stop the demands.

WobblyLondoner · 21/10/2021 13:09

@Blibbyblobby

Oh dear. You seem like a nice person, if a little self-important, but you've been given some very wrong information about us. Let's take a step back and unpick a few key misunderstandings.

what it is about the existence of queer people that makes you feel so threatened

The first one, the big one, is that. Some people are undoubtably threatened by the existence of queer people. They are typically coming from a place of toxic and rigid social gender stereotypes which they attach to the two human human sexes. They are the people who react with hate and sometimes violence, who you perhaps feel are trying to push you back in your box.

But we are not those people.

We believe toxic and rigid social gender stereotypes are a bad thing. People's bodies exist. Male and Female are body types with different baseline capabilities and as things stand social advantages or disadvantages due to a sexist society but that is all. They say nothing about what personality someone should have. They just are.

So we are not threatened because queer people exist. Many of us are what you would consider queer, although we may not choose to label ourselves that way.

What threatens us as female-bodied people is not the existence of queer people, but a recent, politically motivated movement that has repainted queer acceptance from what it should be, an open-minded acceptance of difference and a rejection of gender stereotypes, into a rigid and repressive insistence that gender identity does not just stand beside physical sex as an entirely separate and unrelated aspect of a person, but replaces it socially, legally and politically in every way.

And we, who know what it is to have a female body in a sexist society and so understand why the single sex provisions that exist were originally put in place, cannot accept that.

Trans people's existence does not sadly solve society's sexism. So it is not fair for the genderist movement to demand that female people give up our ability to name, fight and organise around our expreince of sex-based oppression, which is different to gender-based oppression, or else be branded unfairly as transphobes.

There must be a better way.

Every trans woman before she medically transitions presents masculine, and driving some sort of arbitrary standard of femininity

You are confusing Masculinity and Femininity, which are aspects of personality, with the simple fact of body sex. That's not your fault. The people who have "taught" you have deliberately taken the words that meant sex - Man and Woman - and appropriated them to label gender, thereby making it impossible to even frame the discussion about how sex and gender intersect. You might want to consider why they have done that.

But for now, just remember that the genderist movement created an idea that Woman is a state of mind, an identity. It is only this definition that allows the possibility of gatekeeping and misgendering. If you just see woman as a type of body that says nothing fundamental about the identity of the person who is it, the whole issue goes away and we can get back to accepting people as people. The whole thing you rail against is a false flag set up by the people who claim to be on your side.

As I said before, to people who separate sex and gender properly, Womanhood is just a fact about someone's body. Under that definition, male people cannot be women it's true, but since Womanhood is just a fact of the body, that is not a rejection of anyone's identity, it's just a recognition of an aspect of their body that may at times be significant. It's no more "arbitrary" or "gatekeeping" than saying short people cannot be tall is.

The fact remains is that trans people have always been with us, for as long as there has been recorded human history (the Priesthood of the Sumarian Goddess Inanna, for example, were non-binary and trans, and they lived and worked over 8,000 years ago)

Oh sweetheart. The fact that we know they were "trans", which is just our modern word for people who seem to cross what we think of as gendered social roles, is proof that these people's gender identities (again applying a modern understanding which is unlikely to reflect how they themselves saw themselves) were NOT considered interchangeable with femnale people but as a different group that shared some gendered social roles with female people while being understood as male. And that is fine! That is exactly the sort of place we should be heading towards. A place where we understand and accept that the social aspects traditionally coded by sex can be open to everyone, alongside acceptance that for female people especially, the capbilities of our bodies and the hangover of millenia of sexism mean that sometimes we need our sex to be recognised and supported, and that that is ok.

It's not an act of hate, and it's not a rejection of trans people. The only thing that makes it look that way is the trans movement's own insistence, through the appopriation of the words Man and Woman and thereby all pre-existing associations both gender AND sex, that sex is somehow both related and unrelated to gender. All you need to do is realise that they do not have to be related at all, and all this angst simply evaporates.

@Blibbyblobby Bravo - beautifully put.
Blibbyblobby · 21/10/2021 13:09

Loss of privilege feels like oppression.

You know what else feels like oppression? Oppression.

Telling the female half of humanity that has been structurally oppressed by the male half for millenia that their ongoing oppression and marginalisation by male voices, male bodies and male-imposed narratives of womanhood is privilege is obscene.

Artichokeleaves · 21/10/2021 13:48

Anyone thinking that dignity, safety and privacy and sex based rights are a 'privilege' for any group needs to re read the human rights act.

Waitwhat23 · 21/10/2021 15:37

LGBT people exist, get over it.

It's amazing how this type of inane, nonsensical comment is repeated ad nauseum as if it's some sort of clever 'gotcha'. No one who is fighting for women's rights has ever said that LBGT people don't exist. Stonewall on the other hand have changed the definition of homosexuality.

It still hasn't occurred to you that the mantras and insistence of no debate do not work anymore

Any other anti-woman pearls of knowledge from you Margy?

EmbarrassingHadrosaurus · 21/10/2021 16:11

No one who is fighting for women's rights has ever said that LBGT people don't exist. Stonewall on the other hand have changed the definition of homosexuality.

Agreed - and SW has done this without the courtesy of checking with the affected populations that they are entirely happy with or consent to the political redefinition that takes them out of the existence that previously had a shared understanding based on sex classes.

MargaritaPie · 21/10/2021 16:53

I'm still struggling to understand why being an ally/supporter to gay, bi and trans people is "anti-woman".

Artichokeleaves · 21/10/2021 17:06

Try reading the Break It Down for Me thread. Or this thread even. It's repeatedly explained.

1Week · 21/10/2021 17:10

I think it's because being a trans ally these days means taking our words, our spaces, and medicalising and sterilising our kids without sufficient evidence of necessity, MargaritaPie

Waitwhat23 · 21/10/2021 17:12

And yet again, you are reminded of the fact that many posters on here are LBGT. Many have family and friends who are LGBT. The vast majority of posters on here want all LGBT people to have the rights they are entitled to. We are all allies.

What we don't want is for women's rights to be eroded. And they are being. It's now impossible not to notice - the house of cards is falling down.

You have in many different threads argued against women's single sex spaces, argued against women being able to discuss these issues in public, argued against women stating perfectly legal views, argued for platforms such as the GenderCritical subreddit to be deleted while ignoring the MRA subreddits which remain under the guise of 'free speech'.

You are not an ally. You are using that as a platform to express your anti woman sentiments.

(Did you forget the word lesbian in your last post? That's quite telling).

Blibbyblobby · 21/10/2021 17:17

@MargaritaPie

I'm still struggling to understand why being an ally/supporter to gay, bi and trans people is "anti-woman".
It certainly shouldn't be. The problems come when you believe the only way to be an ally is to promote the very rigid view that self-defined gender identity must be respected instead of sex in all contexts and shut down any possibility of raising concerns with that blanket view or bringing in more nuanced discussion calling it "transphobic".

That's when it becomes anti-woman.

DraintheBlood · 21/10/2021 17:37

@MargaritaPie

I'm still struggling to understand why being an ally/supporter to gay, bi and trans people is "anti-woman".
Supporting lesbian, gay & bisexual people isn’t anti women. Supporting gay and bisexual men takes nothing away from women. Supporting lesbians and bisexual women supports women, obviously.

Supporting trans ideology to get the legal definition of women adapted to ‘anyone who feels like one’ decimates all women and girls (including the female bodied transmen & nb ones) legal rights protections.

Supporting transwoman accessing women’s safe spaces (whether toilets or dv refuges) takes away women and girls right to single sex spaces for safety, privacy and dignity.

Supporting gender ideologies redefinition of lesbian to a woman whose same gender, not sex, attracted is no different to straight men hassling lesbians to provide access to their bodies.

Gender ideology saying lesbian gnc teens who like stereotypically boys clothes/hair styles etc is conversation therapy.

Telling children that they must accept that a male bodies person could be a woman and should be allowed in the girls toilets is gas lighting them. Safeguarding relies on naming material reality. A girl being forced to say the girl in the girls toilets is making me uncomfortable when she watches me is a mind fuck for her and will get a very different response than her saying the boy (belonging to the sex class that is responsible for 98% of sex crimes) is in the girls toilets and is making me uncomfortable when he watches me is being truthful and will get a serious response from most people.

Forcing people to lie about biological and legal fact takes away free speech, which is a right protected by law. This law prevents compelled speech also, so policies in schools and organisations punishing people for ‘mis’ gendering transwomen (accurately sex ing them) takes away rights to free speech.

Post edited by MNHQ

DraintheBlood · 21/10/2021 17:39

*must be transboys

Phobiaphobic · 21/10/2021 21:43

@AniseDanehill

You've nailed exactly how I feel. I feel like I'm in a remake of Invasion of the Bodysnatchers. I've lost all my friends over this issue and I feel sad, lonely, and furious.
I keep using the exact same analogy. It is like people are being silently taken over. I find it really creepy and upsetting, but mostly it just makes me furious.
Scraggythang · 21/10/2021 23:26

I’d hate to be a misguided do-gooder interloping on these threads with such articulate posters who have heard it all before and considered every possible stance.

@Blibbyblobby fantastic post.

Scraggythang · 21/10/2021 23:28

@Phobiaphobic @AniseDanehill

I feel exactly the same. It’s like I’ve woken up in a cult.

Phobiaphobic · 22/10/2021 11:15

@MothsAreSadButterflies

Alfonso I agree with your viewpoint. However I feel that level of commitment to living as their perceived idea of a woman is different to just saying I'm a woman but looking, sounding, being a man.

In the cases of trans people who have transitioned I see them as a third space people (something quite remarkable in fact) and can more easily see them as their desired presentation.. even if not really believing they ARE the opposite sex.

www.cambridgesu.co.uk/resources/guides/spottingterfideology/

The link above is why I'm so depressed. Why I feel I don't fit in the new world the kids want.

@MothsAreSadButterflies The new world that some kids want. There are many who think everything in that ridiculous document is a load of bollocks. Far more than you might imagine - I know because I've met them, and heard them talk about what their friends think. The idiots who wrote that Cambridge doc are in the minority.
DraintheBlood · 22/10/2021 11:26

This reply has been deleted

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MamsellMarie · 22/10/2021 14:23

The link above is why I'm so depressed. Why I feel I don't fit in the new world the kids want.

When I was a young teen, flower power was all the rage - Woodstock on the news, men with long hair, free love.
Now I'm old (and wise) my poor parents who both were in the 2nd World War must have thought the world had truly gone mad.
True there wasn't too much hippydom in rural Scotland where I lived - but it seemed such a great idea at the time - smoking pot, handing out flowers to passersby for peace and love, my age group adopted all we could of it, we were coooool.
OMG what did I know about peace compared to the adults who'd been fighting Nazism and saving the Jews, and had many friends and family didn't survive!

The wokey wokesters now will grow up and in a few decades look back at this tomfoolery with amazement - how could they have been so naive.

Nil desperandum - it will just take time.