Stonewall and my profession

[StraightToVideo]

I'm a vet.
I think I've always been GC but only recently realised that my opinions (reality) have a 'name'.
Just finished the Nolan podcasts and have checked my professional body (RCVS Royal College of Veterinary Surgeons) to find they are proud to be part of Stonewall's diversity scheme and workplace equality index.
I am ill at ease with this, especially as vets are scientists.
I need some advice please on how to approach expressing my disquiet - via discussion of the protected characteristics I think?

Though submissions to this letter are closed, this might help OP.

sex-matters.org/take-action/take-action-archive/sign-our-letter/

If your professional body do not correctly list the PCs, I agree that is a good place to start. I got my HR to correctly reflect them after noting their omission to include sex.

You may find more here:

legalfeminist.org.uk/

And also generally browsing this board...

Thanks for this post, Straight. Had a look at my royal college and we are proud supporters too.

FFS.

There's a thread here Come out of Stonewall - Protest Friday 22nd October www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4376412-Come-out-of-Stonewall-Protest-Friday-22nd-October

I think there are links to template letters etc you could write.

So.. does the Royal College of Vetinary Surgeons believe that a male cat who has undergone a penile urethrostomy has transitioned into being female? Or does their inclusiveness only apply to humans?

@OhHolyJesus do you mind me asking how you managed to get your HR department to correctly identify the PCs please? I’ve raised that sex has been omitted in the diversity and inclusion policy at work and they have responded by saying the have chosen to use “gender identity” as a wider term that includes but is not limited to sex. I’m not sure where to go next with it.

@JohnNutLips I think I would be inclined to agree that, yes, 'gender identity' covers areas which 'sex' does not. However, the protected characteristic in the Equality Act is 'sex'.

How do they plan on establishing they are meeting their duties to people with that protected characteristic? If an employee alledged discrimination on grounds of sex, would they struggle to defend this given it is not even mentioned in the diversity and inclusion policy.

@StraightToVideo I share your concerns. However, the tide is changing, and I'm not sure I'd want to be the one sticking my head above the parapet on this.

JohnNutLips

I know you weren't asking me the question, but I am pretty sure that while HR departments are free to add extra PCs, they cannot change the ones that are written into law

If they have omitted sex from their list, or have used Gender Identity instead of Gender Reassignment, they are not reflecting the actual law.

HR can't just rewrite an Act of Parliament just because they think their version's better. See how well it goes when you decide to drive at 90mph because you think it's better than the silly old law which restricts you to 70mph

[quote JohnNutLips]@OhHolyJesus do you mind me asking how you managed to get your HR department to correctly identify the PCs please? I’ve raised that sex has been omitted in the diversity and inclusion policy at work and they have responded by saying the have chosen to use “gender identity” as a wider term that includes but is not limited to sex. I’m not sure where to go next with it.[/quote]
This is bonkers. I couldn't handle a response like that. It would break me. The stupidity of thinking you can just re-write a law because you think you're version is better.

@kittykarate

So.. does the Royal College of Vetinary Surgeons believe that a male cat who has undergone a penile urethrostomy has transitioned into being female? Or does their inclusiveness only apply to humans?

I was wondering that!

Thanks very much everyone. I will keep trying but don’t hold much hope of getting it changed. Very big private sector company who I believe have used Stonewall as the “experts”.

@JohnNutLips

Thanks very much everyone. I will keep trying but don’t hold much hope of getting it changed. Very big private sector company who I believe have used Stonewall as the “experts”.

Perhaps start by pointing to the reputational damage caused by claiming to follow the guidance of a discredited organisation who are unable to provide materials compatible with the law of the law when advising on the law.

So.. does the Royal College of Vetinary Surgeons believe that a male cat who has undergone a penile urethrostomy has transitioned into being female?

That was precisely how the vet "explained" feline perineal urethrostomy to us: "It'll turn him from a boy cat into sort of a girl cat." I inferred the vet must have a low opinion of my cognitive capacities, and since I was sobbing hysterically at the time, I could see why the vet might think he had to talk to me like a toddler.

But perhaps this wasn't about me at all, and is a common explanatory model among vets for that procedure?

They have been thoroughly outed as a lobby group with shady practices and targets. Any organisation maintaining links will get fleas lying with that dog.

@drhf

So.. does the Royal College of Vetinary Surgeons believe that a male cat who has undergone a penile urethrostomy has transitioned into being female?

That was precisely how the vet "explained" feline perineal urethrostomy to us: "It'll turn him from a boy cat into sort of a girl cat." I inferred the vet must have a low opinion of my cognitive capacities, and since I was sobbing hysterically at the time, I could see why the vet might think he had to talk to me like a toddler.

But perhaps this wasn't about me at all, and is a common explanatory model among vets for that procedure?

jaw drops

stunned

Please tell me if that you asked if a similar process would turn you into a lesbian if your male partner had a serious and unfortunate accident which involved the loss of an appendage?

[quote JohnNutLips]@OhHolyJesus do you mind me asking how you managed to get your HR department to correctly identify the PCs please? I’ve raised that sex has been omitted in the diversity and inclusion policy at work and they have responded by saying the have chosen to use “gender identity” as a wider term that includes but is not limited to sex. I’m not sure where to go next with it.[/quote]
As PP says, yes that is bonkers.

If they are not accurately reflecting the law they are leaving themselves open to legal action where sex is the basis for discrimination.
Did they include sex and add "gender identity".

The protected characteristic, as we all know, is "gender reassignment" and single sex spaces can still apply.

If it were me and I was able, I would share the Jo Phoenix case with the Reindorf report. I would also ask them why they are choosing that phrase which isn't legally defined or recognised, who decided this and who that person has been taking to.

Sorry @JohnNutLips I didn't @ you in my reply post a few mins ago...

(I'm no expert, it would just be my next step and it very much depends on how far you feel you can go.)

The urethrostomy point is interesting; I think the male cat only becomes female if he feels female.
But of course we don't know how he feels on this topic.
Do animals raised by other species identify as that species and not their own?

My dog sleeps tucked under the duvet with her head on a pillow. Pretty sure she thinks she's human.

@Motorina do you think I should stay shtum?

SexMatters also have a great publication 'Understanding the risk of following Stonewall guidance – briefing for employers'
It's a great document, not just for employers.

sex-matters.org/posts/publications/stonewall-risk-2/

@StraightToVideo yeah, I do, sorry. I don't like that it's that way but, as a registered professional, you're subject to their FTP procedures and it's too easy to say something accidentally offensive in this area.

I'm NHS and, if the subject comes up, I'll be keeping my head down for just that reason.

@JurassickJay

And can cats identify as dogs?

Because I once had a kitten who was best mates with a terrier and learned to growl and gnaw bones.

Can I identify as a cat? I'd gladly sleep for fourteen hours every day, I go nuts if a fly buzzes around annoying me, and I retreat when things get too peopley.

I’ve raised that sex has been omitted in the diversity and inclusion policy at work and they have responded by saying the have chosen to use “gender identity” as a wider term that includes but is not limited to sex. I’m not sure where to go next with it.

Widening the term works with rights such as freedom from harassment and violence. Those are rights which everyone should have, and extending that right to more people doesn't disadvantage anyone.

But it doesn't work for rights such as equal pay, since broadening the characteristic might mean that the comparator now shares the characteristic with the victim, and now can't be compared against.

Similarly, counting transwomen as women in gender pay gap statistics when they transitioned in middle age - after enjoying all the career advantages of being male - makes the pay gap seem smaller than it really is.