Transcript.
I assume by 'style guide' they mean the news style guide? In fact I'm sure do as I've just looked at it and sure enough under gender/sex (just under Geldof, Bob who I now know is not entitled to be called 'Sir Bob'!
MH: How much influence should advocacy organisations have on public sector bodies, including the BBC? That's a question at the heart of the Nolan Investigates podcast which has been looking at Stonewall, which was founded in 1989 to campaign for Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual and Transgender rights. Well, Stephen Nolan and David Thompson, who are co-presenters of the podcast are in our Belfast studio now. Good morning Stephen and David.
Um, what are the ways in which Stonewall has an influence on organisations like this one?
SN: Well, they have a significant influence and that is no criticism of Stonewall, I think the point, the fundamental point we make in the podcast is - Stonewall are a lobby group and are very, very good at it. The question here, is, how much should the organisations who are being lobbied be standing back, and be thinking about groups other than Stonewall who may have opposing views, and at the heart of this podcast, Mishal, is the reality that gender identity is a contested issue and what we're very aware of - the reason why we've done this - is because there is a fear factor for many, many people and we've received communications from senior people within the BBC, outside the BBC, who are frightened of speaking about this issue. As soon as we know that, the BBC needs to get right into that territory and needs to facilitate safe debate and that's what this podcast is trying to do.
MH: And Stonewall David, has a certain position on Gender Identity and are you saying that that is one position and therefore organisations that have them as part, you know, use them as part of their metric on how they are doing on workplace authorit, er, equality need to think more broadly?'
DT: Well, what Stonewall do is, is when they are talking to these organisations, they will emphasise gender identity and how important gender identity is, um, and they will advise organisations that they should change language and change language around the Equality Act. So, the protected characteristic under the Act is Gender Reassignment. Stonewall do a very subtle thing and they say, you know, 'use more up to date language like Gender Identity'. Obviously, that becomes contentious and that's opposed by other groups and that's kind of at the heart of why some of the advice that they're giving is so controversial.
MH: They, they didn't take part in your podcast, did they? I mean, they, they, they gave a statement about their work but didn't give an interview.
DT: Yeah, that's right, and, look, what we're doing is there's an open offer to Stonewall - we will create another episode if they want to sit down with us and speak to us and the questions are ones that we know people want to talk about. There has been an unbelievable response of opinion, both sides of this - supporting Stonewall, against Stonewall. You know, the word 'Mother'. We've seen from the research of how Stonewall were telling the Scottish Government to remove the word 'Mother' from their maternity policy. We could see the Scottish Government replying , saying ' Maternity Policy changed'. We have questions for the BBC and Stonewall as to, you know, this organisation we're broadcasting in now - the BBC, it submits itself to tests every year in the work equality, workplace equality index. That's basically, is the BBC complying with what Stonewall says you should be doing. MY question to the BBC is 'Why are you submitting yourself to a lobby group? Why are you doing that?' And the BBC haven't answered that question and Stonewall will not participate in the program either and these are big, big issues.
MH: I am just looking at what the BBC has said about this - that it doesn't take legal advice from Stonewall, doesn't subscribe to Stonewall's campaigning and that it simply provides advice that we are able to consider - we being the BBC. Stonewall itself says it is completely normal and appropriate for charities to engage with public sector organisations to advocate for their beneficiaries, to improve public policy. I guess what I'm wondering is, where you are an organisation that is trying to - that needs an outside view on, 'look. how are we doing? How is this workplace meeting the needs of different employees, how inclusive a culture are we?' You need to have those partner organisations, don't you - specialist organisations which work in this area who can sense check and heath check what you're doing and often criticise and say 'you need to do better in these areas'
DT: That is possibly an argument I think where, where the obvious conflict in this comes is where LGBT people within the BBC have a range of different views. And what's been really interesting since we began this podcast, since the podcast went out, is the number of people from within the BBC, from within the LGBT community who have contacted us and congratulated us for asking these questions about Stonewall, there in no unanimity of opinion amongst LGBT staff that Stonewall should be the arbiters of this.
SN: And if the BBC is taking a range of advice would they please tell us, other than Stonewall, who they have taken this advice from, cause we can't find it. So we can see - we give the testimony in the podcast of where senior BBC managers, very senior BBC managers are saying, 'We are working closely with Stonewall'. We have other statements from the BBC were they have said 'What is likely to be true at Stonewall is likely to be true at the BBC'. We can see how the BBC changed the definition of homosexuality in its style guide to one that is very, very similar to what Stonewall wanted. So the BBC is now changed - just so that people know - the BBC in its style guide has changed homosexuality to 'People of either sex who are attracted to people of their own gender' - gender being the key word there. So the BBC has changed that recently. Why? Where's the discussion? I think these are legitimate questions.
MH: And your, the whole series of your podcasts - I guess unless you do any extra episodes later on - is on BBC sounds now. Stephen Nolan and David Thompson, thank you both.
NR: It is a fascinating listen and a reminder that those of us who appear on the BBC - we don't run it, we just work for it!