I don't have any feelings of gender - is there a Stonewall friendly term for me?

[vivariumvivariumsvivaria]

Still debating my rights to single spaces with colleagues - if you didn't see my previous thread (which filled up, my first 1000 post thread on MN!) - they are trying to remove my single sex toilet.

They tell me I am "cis" because I am not trans or NB.

Google tells me that cis means that my gender aligns with my sex.

I have no feelings of gender. I appreciate others do, and for some gender is a huge influence on their life - but gender, whether I am masculine or feminine, is just not something I think about.

I could "pass" as NB today because I'm WFH and have on men's joggers, my husband's sweatshirt, no make up, my hair is short and I really should get the veet out to tackle my tache before I am back in the office. When in the office I am Smart, rather than feminine, I'll wear earrings and a bit of makeup (enough to make me look less fucking knackered) and unfussy, well made clothes bought from a shop which markets to women. Im not making a political statement from my style - I'm dressing for the job I want rather than the job I have, which is arguably a masculine approach to the workplace.

My colleague's tell me that my lack of gender makes me a-gender, but surely that means that I actively reject gender? That's not me, I don't reject it, it's an irrelevance.

Other things which are irrelevant to me are formula one racing, Little Mix, and dogs - along with an infinite number of other things. I appreciate that those things are very important to some people, and that for a few people their whole lives revolve around those things, but, I'm not expected to describe myself as a-dogs in my workplace or in my personal life - so, why am I being forced to describe myself as a-gender?

So, is there a term I'm missing? Something that describes people for whom gender is just not relevant? I'm told that "woman" is not sufficient.

I'm absolutely furious and I am standing up for myself - and in doing so I am standing up for the women in our office whom I know really need that toilet to be single sex because they have confided in me. They should not have to disclose personal history or circumstances in order to retain their legal provisions. To discuss their reasoning would be in itself be traumatising and bad manners. I am a good manager and a decent human being, it is not reasonable to expose their history as currency to justify what the law says they are entitled to. It requires no justification, it is law.

I have learned, through this tedious exercise, what 'privilege" means - I have privilege because I do not have trauma, am an expert in my field, senior in our organisation, work at a national level and know fine well that if I resigned over this it would cause a ripple in our professional bubble and I'd walk into another job tomorrow. I'm far from "don't you know who I am?" status, but, if I left this organisation it would feature in the professional press because I'd phone my friend who's the editor in the biggest professional magazine who agrees with me and my employers would like to keep me because I have an unusual skill set and will be difficult to replace. Plus, I'm really fucking nice, and great on a Christmas night out.

This combination of professional skills and people skills, robustness, luck and sense of humour means I have the freedoms to say "fuck off" to these loons who seem to be unable of critical thinking, think that repeating Stonewall mantras constitutes professional debate, or that it is correct to try and negotiate my rights in law away from me.

So, my question is - if I am not cis and I am not a-gender and I am not allowed to describe myself as "woman" - what am I?

Apart from "fucked off", that is.

I don't know, but i'm the same as you

I believe the term is 'bigot'.

P.S. sorry you are facing such hassle at work about retaining single-sex toilets. ☹️

if I am not cis and I am not a-gender and I am not allowed to describe myself as "woman" - what am I?

Well, not privileged for a start. The people with privilege are those enforcing that you must fit with their words and their concepts or be non-personed. You privileges apparently don't extend to being believed, being permitted your own sense of identity or to say no.

Sounds quite oppressed to me really.

My colleague's tell me that my lack of gender makes me a-gender, but surely that means that I actively reject gender?

No, agender would just mean genderless, not anti-gender.
I would describe myself as anti-gender rather than agender tbh. I am against gender altogether, because it's nothing but a bunch of stereotypes. I don't 'feel like a woman' because I like pink, chick lit and getting my nails done (I don't). I feel like a woman because I know I actually am one, and my body gives me plenty of reminders of that fact!

Who the fuck knows. But I did think yesterday, if I'm asked what my pronouns are, my reply will be 'X / X'.

"Genderfree" was posited here a while back to distinguish from "agender".

The distinction being, basically "I don't think I have a gender, same as everyone else, and thus it's not a thing" versus "I don't think I have a gender, unlike most people, and that's really important".

There was a long thread here on MN (now taken down) about a poster wanting to apply for some sort of LGBTQ+ role, and using that as their label.

This was immediately declaimed as transphobic, obviously, so doesn't meet your "Stonewall-friendly" requirement.

Not sure you can do better than "agender".

I do t know what you are if you just don’t give a crap about gender (as any sensible person shouldn’t).

I think you sound phenomenally awesome though and I wish I worked with you.

I feel the same as you too. I have no answer to the question though unfortunately.

Also, I'd love to go out on a Christmas night with you!

I have no gender. Its only recently occured to me just how gender non conforming I am (or how recently gender steryotypes are now being obsessed over and coded in to law).
I wore make up for about a year when I was fourteen, thats it. I only brush my hair because I'll get in trouble at work if I dont.
Does that make me a male? The widwifes who delivered my two kids would be supprised to hear that.

Normal.

You are just fucking normal.

Shout back. I know, you can't but FFS! How much more of this labelling lunacy can we take?

"I reject your attempts to label me. I am me. An individual. I am not a piece in any gender puzzle.

Your attempts to force a label on me infringe my human rights, deeply offend my sense of self and are utterly rejected."

Optional: so do fuck off dear.

Having African frizzy hair, and being not inclined to spend hours and money on all this 'feminine' bullshit gender non conforming is not a great combo

Stonewall’s Glossary of Terms says

Gender
Often expressed in terms of masculinity and femininity, gender is largely culturally determined and is assumed from the sex assigned at birth.

So apparently Stonewall say you must have a gender, and it’s ‘assumed’. Sounds regressive to begin with…

Gender expression
How a person chooses to outwardly express their gender, within the context of societal expectations of gender. A person who does not conform to societal expectations of gender may not, however, identify as trans.

By this definition you are choosing to ‘express gender’ by wearing makeup etc.

Gender identity
A person’s innate sense of their own gender, whether male, female or something else (see non-binary below), which may or may not correspond to the sex assigned at birth.

No clue if you don’t have that ‘innate sense’. Not helpful.

Non-binary
An umbrella term for people whose gender identity doesn’t sit comfortably with ‘man’ or ‘woman’. Non-binary identities are varied and can include people who identify with some aspects of binary identities, while others reject them entirely.

So you could very legitimately choose to be NB, by rejecting gender altogether. I think?

Trans
An umbrella term to describe people whose gender is not the same as, or does not sit comfortably with, the sex they were assigned at birth.

Trans people may describe themselves using one or more of a wide variety of terms, including (but not limited to) transgender, transsexual, gender-queer (GQ), gender-fluid, non-binary, gender-variant, crossdresser, genderless, agender, nongender, third gender, bi-gender, trans man, trans woman,trans masculine, trans feminine and neutrois.
If you’re genderless or a-gender then you’re trans despite not really believing in gender. Seems odd.

I tend to think that most people whose gender and sex are aligned probably don’t think much about it. It’s only if there is a dissonance that it becomes obvious. Kind of like if you are wearing comfortable clothes then you forget all about them. You don’t walk around all day thinking, ‘ooh my clothes are so comfortable, I’ve just noticed how my waistband isn’t digging into my tummy’. It’s only if you are wearing a too-tight pair of trousers that you notice that they are pinching you when you sit down. I think that’s a bit like gender dysphoria - you notice because it doesn’t feel right…

In essence from that, Squirrels it sounds as if so long as you first identify yourself as obedient to and participating in the ideology you may then choose your personal preferred label from amongst the ones it offers. What you can't do is be an atheist.

They tell me I am "cis" because I am not trans or NB.

Anyway, with the toilets I’d just tell them it doesn’t matter AT ALL what gender identity I have or the lack thereof, it’s totally irrelevant to the point at hand which is that the single sex toilet is important to me as a female.

@Holly60

I tend to think that most people whose gender and sex are aligned probably don’t think much about it. It’s only if there is a dissonance that it becomes obvious. Kind of like if you are wearing comfortable clothes then you forget all about them. You don’t walk around all day thinking, ‘ooh my clothes are so comfortable, I’ve just noticed how my waistband isn’t digging into my tummy’. It’s only if you are wearing a too-tight pair of trousers that you notice that they are pinching you when you sit down. I think that’s a bit like gender dysphoria - you notice because it doesn’t feel right…

I think we notice gendered expectations all the time, without necessarily thinking that this has anything to do with internal identity.

I am well uncomfortable with some aspects of the gendered expectations I’m forced to run up against every day - that’s not an identity issue but a cultural issue.

I feel the same regarding gender! I dont identify as anything, I just am a woman. I reject agender as a term/identity for myself.

I dress how I want, I dont follow any fashion or gender stereotypes, I wear make up and/or do my hair if I want to.

I reject the entire notion of gender and think it is regressive, misogynistic, oppressive and unnecessary. though I respect other people's rights to believe in gender and identify with it.

also respect for standing up for woman at your workplace. I recently did this too and had messages of thanks and appreciation from other women.

I have no innate sense of gender - I'm gender less - so I could be termed trans???
But I also don't think gender exists, I think there are many and varied personality types and preferences. So not sure genderless captures this. I do know that gender is important to some.

I reject the entire notion of gender and think it is regressive, misogynistic, oppressive and unnecessary. though I respect other people's rights to believe in gender and identify with it.*

This. I say that either I don't have a gender, or I reject gender expectations because they've only ever been harmful to me. That is my lived experience and my truth.

I honestly wouldn’t entertain getting into the debate.

Your right to single sex spaces is enshrined in law. Your sex is female. Any questions about gender are irrelevant. Toilets are separated on the basis of sex not gender. There is nothing else to discuss really.

I'd use 'agender' for the purposes of this situation I think.

Holly60 I frequently have experiences where people's assumptions about my supposed gender identity clash with my own lived experience. I reject & dislike the stereotypical notions people have about how a person of female sex should look, think & act, and I feel that dissonance all the time. What do you think that implies about whether I have a gender identity or not? Would you say I experience gender dysphoria?!

Oooh, does that mean we are all actually Trans?
The fact the Labour party are shutting down trans people while trying to express how we need third spaces is shocking, no?

Actually I do remember feeling very self concous about my looks when younger, does that count as 'gender dysphoria'? or is it just being a woman subject to the male gaze?

@vivariumvivariumsvivaria

Still debating my rights to single spaces with colleagues - if you didn't see my previous thread (which filled up, my first 1000 post thread on MN!) - they are trying to remove my single sex toilet.

They tell me I am "cis" because I am not trans or NB.

Google tells me that cis means that my gender aligns with my sex.

I have no feelings of gender. I appreciate others do, and for some gender is a huge influence on their life - but gender, whether I am masculine or feminine, is just not something I think about.

I could "pass" as NB today because I'm WFH and have on men's joggers, my husband's sweatshirt, no make up, my hair is short and I really should get the veet out to tackle my tache before I am back in the office. When in the office I am Smart, rather than feminine, I'll wear earrings and a bit of makeup (enough to make me look less fucking knackered) and unfussy, well made clothes bought from a shop which markets to women. Im not making a political statement from my style - I'm dressing for the job I want rather than the job I have, which is arguably a masculine approach to the workplace.

My colleague's tell me that my lack of gender makes me a-gender, but surely that means that I actively reject gender? That's not me, I don't reject it, it's an irrelevance.

Other things which are irrelevant to me are formula one racing, Little Mix, and dogs - along with an infinite number of other things. I appreciate that those things are very important to some people, and that for a few people their whole lives revolve around those things, but, I'm not expected to describe myself as a-dogs in my workplace or in my personal life - so, why am I being forced to describe myself as a-gender?

So, is there a term I'm missing? Something that describes people for whom gender is just not relevant? I'm told that "woman" is not sufficient.

I'm absolutely furious and I am standing up for myself - and in doing so I am standing up for the women in our office whom I know really need that toilet to be single sex because they have confided in me. They should not have to disclose personal history or circumstances in order to retain their legal provisions. To discuss their reasoning would be in itself be traumatising and bad manners. I am a good manager and a decent human being, it is not reasonable to expose their history as currency to justify what the law says they are entitled to. It requires no justification, it is law.

I have learned, through this tedious exercise, what 'privilege" means - I have privilege because I do not have trauma, am an expert in my field, senior in our organisation, work at a national level and know fine well that if I resigned over this it would cause a ripple in our professional bubble and I'd walk into another job tomorrow. I'm far from "don't you know who I am?" status, but, if I left this organisation it would feature in the professional press because I'd phone my friend who's the editor in the biggest professional magazine who agrees with me and my employers would like to keep me because I have an unusual skill set and will be difficult to replace. Plus, I'm really fucking nice, and great on a Christmas night out.

This combination of professional skills and people skills, robustness, luck and sense of humour means I have the freedoms to say "fuck off" to these loons who seem to be unable of critical thinking, think that repeating Stonewall mantras constitutes professional debate, or that it is correct to try and negotiate my rights in law away from me.

So, my question is - if I am not cis and I am not a-gender and I am not allowed to describe myself as "woman" - what am I?

Apart from "fucked off", that is.

Nothing to add just 👏👏👏👏