I don't have any feelings of gender - is there a Stonewall friendly term for me?

[vivariumvivariumsvivaria]

Still debating my rights to single spaces with colleagues - if you didn't see my previous thread (which filled up, my first 1000 post thread on MN!) - they are trying to remove my single sex toilet.

They tell me I am "cis" because I am not trans or NB.

Google tells me that cis means that my gender aligns with my sex.

I have no feelings of gender. I appreciate others do, and for some gender is a huge influence on their life - but gender, whether I am masculine or feminine, is just not something I think about.

I could "pass" as NB today because I'm WFH and have on men's joggers, my husband's sweatshirt, no make up, my hair is short and I really should get the veet out to tackle my tache before I am back in the office. When in the office I am Smart, rather than feminine, I'll wear earrings and a bit of makeup (enough to make me look less fucking knackered) and unfussy, well made clothes bought from a shop which markets to women. Im not making a political statement from my style - I'm dressing for the job I want rather than the job I have, which is arguably a masculine approach to the workplace.

My colleague's tell me that my lack of gender makes me a-gender, but surely that means that I actively reject gender? That's not me, I don't reject it, it's an irrelevance.

Other things which are irrelevant to me are formula one racing, Little Mix, and dogs - along with an infinite number of other things. I appreciate that those things are very important to some people, and that for a few people their whole lives revolve around those things, but, I'm not expected to describe myself as a-dogs in my workplace or in my personal life - so, why am I being forced to describe myself as a-gender?

So, is there a term I'm missing? Something that describes people for whom gender is just not relevant? I'm told that "woman" is not sufficient.

I'm absolutely furious and I am standing up for myself - and in doing so I am standing up for the women in our office whom I know really need that toilet to be single sex because they have confided in me. They should not have to disclose personal history or circumstances in order to retain their legal provisions. To discuss their reasoning would be in itself be traumatising and bad manners. I am a good manager and a decent human being, it is not reasonable to expose their history as currency to justify what the law says they are entitled to. It requires no justification, it is law.

I have learned, through this tedious exercise, what 'privilege" means - I have privilege because I do not have trauma, am an expert in my field, senior in our organisation, work at a national level and know fine well that if I resigned over this it would cause a ripple in our professional bubble and I'd walk into another job tomorrow. I'm far from "don't you know who I am?" status, but, if I left this organisation it would feature in the professional press because I'd phone my friend who's the editor in the biggest professional magazine who agrees with me and my employers would like to keep me because I have an unusual skill set and will be difficult to replace. Plus, I'm really fucking nice, and great on a Christmas night out.

This combination of professional skills and people skills, robustness, luck and sense of humour means I have the freedoms to say "fuck off" to these loons who seem to be unable of critical thinking, think that repeating Stonewall mantras constitutes professional debate, or that it is correct to try and negotiate my rights in law away from me.

So, my question is - if I am not cis and I am not a-gender and I am not allowed to describe myself as "woman" - what am I?

Apart from "fucked off", that is.

@Holly60

I tend to think that most people whose gender and sex are aligned probably don’t think much about it. It’s only if there is a dissonance that it becomes obvious. Kind of like if you are wearing comfortable clothes then you forget all about them. You don’t walk around all day thinking, ‘ooh my clothes are so comfortable, I’ve just noticed how my waistband isn’t digging into my tummy’. It’s only if you are wearing a too-tight pair of trousers that you notice that they are pinching you when you sit down. I think that’s a bit like gender dysphoria - you notice because it doesn’t feel right…

But we are told gender dysphoria is not required to be "trans". Non-binary, gender fluid, agenda people etc are not necessarily gender dysphoric. Nor are cross-dressers. These are all people under the trans umbrella.

So it feels very much to me like only some people are allowed to self identify. Middle aged women like me are definitely not allowed to say we have no gender, or we think gender is bollocks, or we want to break free of gender. No, we just get told we are cis.

Funny that.

@Holly60

I tend to think that most people whose gender and sex are aligned probably don’t think much about it. It’s only if there is a dissonance that it becomes obvious. Kind of like if you are wearing comfortable clothes then you forget all about them. You don’t walk around all day thinking, ‘ooh my clothes are so comfortable, I’ve just noticed how my waistband isn’t digging into my tummy’. It’s only if you are wearing a too-tight pair of trousers that you notice that they are pinching you when you sit down. I think that’s a bit like gender dysphoria - you notice because it doesn’t feel right…

I never felt right when men were looking at me, like I never felt right in my body and awkward and self concious. But I think all women have that feeling to some extent.

I absolute hate to be considered as a woman for anything other than my biology

I clearly see sex snd gender as distinct items

I am very uncomfortable with being gender woman . It doesn't fit. It's beyond uncomfortable. I have spent my whole life trying to throw off that gender.

I refuse however to label myself as transman or none binary because that says the exact opposite of what I feel . I think that sex does sometimes matter and gender never should . Being trans says the opposite

Yes sex matter. I only got given that gender because of my sex. There is no gender without sex . And it's a handy way to speed up medical diagnosis. Snd some of the biological differences matter? I'd like safety gear to fit pleAse

Sp bleep off ( is swearing allowed ?) with the idea that we must be bleeping comfortable with being gender woman because we bleeping well are not

That's what feminism means to me... chucking off the constraints of gender

@Ihaventgottimeforthis

I'd use 'agender' for the purposes of this situation I think.

Holly60 I frequently have experiences where people's assumptions about my supposed gender identity clash with my own lived experience. I reject & dislike the stereotypical notions people have about how a person of female sex should look, think & act, and I feel that dissonance all the time. What do you think that implies about whether I have a gender identity or not? Would you say I experience gender dysphoria?!

Erm…my point is more about how you feel in your own body, not external influences. If you don’t ‘notice’ a dissonance with your own physicality then you are probably not trans. I guess…

*Holly60

I tend to think that most people whose gender and sex are aligned probably don’t think much about it.*
But what about people who reject the idea they have a gender? Do you respect their right to this view or tell them that they feel this way because there is no dissonance?

@Holly60
But the women here are telling you that they do feel uncomfortable in their own bodies, its those bodies that get them unwelcome attention and judged, judged negatively everywhere they go.
How is that different to a 'dissonance with our own physicality'?

Is it not that we corectly identify the problem as not in ourselfs but with society?

[quote Fariha31]@Holly60
But the women here are telling you that they do feel uncomfortable in their own bodies, its those bodies that get them unwelcome attention and judged, judged negatively everywhere they go.
How is that different to a 'dissonance with our own physicality'?[/quote]
Well… is it the fact that you have breasts you don’t like, or that your breasts are being stared at?

Do you wish that people wouldn’t stare at your breasts, or do you wish you didn’t have breasts and had a penis instead?

I most certainly wish I didn't have breasts thank you and a penis would be useful

@Severntrent

*Holly60

I tend to think that most people whose gender and sex are aligned probably don’t think much about it.*
But what about people who reject the idea they have a gender? Do you respect their right to this view or tell them that they feel this way because there is no dissonance?

I wouldn’t presume to tell anyone how they feel. If someone tells me how they identify, I accept that.

Its both in a sexist society.

What if I told you I identify as Holly60, would you accept that?

Its nothing to do with breasts or being stared at. Its about existing in a sexist society. Being an object that does not (can never really) be up to the mark. Being self concious about your existance, thats what its like being a woman in a sexist society.

How far does that acceptance go? Can I identify as a 3-year-old and go to nursery?

You see I feel no dissonance because I am proud of being a woman, and want to fight sexism and misogyny as a woman. If you would really rather have a penis, then that must be a bit more complex.

@Holly60

You see I feel no dissonance because I am proud of being a woman, and want to fight sexism and misogyny as a woman. If you would really rather have a penis, then that must be a bit more complex.

Yet you are happy to ignore womans experiances? (I wont even go in to locking women up with rapists)

Fingers crossed Holly60 (or us, as I like to say) is on top of her game job wise.

But I actually get very distressed when people who aren't female say they are women . It's saying woman means more than body . That makes me feel sick, it means you show no respect for me snd my capabilities . It means you see woman brain as a thing
Beyond rude

Agender seems about right to me, by analogy with atheist. The terms recognise that others believe in gender or god(s) but that I don't.

@Fariha31

What if I told you I identify as Holly60, would you accept that?

On the one hand you are demanding that I accept that you feel you have no gender, but on the other you seem to be upset by my statement that I AM happy to accept it, as I will accept other people’s explanation of their identity.

But we are what every we say we are. I am both.

I believe 'agender' is everyone else beings in a gender box, except me.
If you think no one belongs in a gender box, then you get labelled a terf.
I'm also bemused by the idea that a bunch of women on a feminist board might not have thought much about sex and gender.

@midgedude

But I actually get very distressed when people who aren't female say they are women . It's saying woman means more than body . That makes me feel sick, it means you show no respect for me snd my capabilities . It means you see woman brain as a thing Beyond rude

It seems more like they think 'woman' is something less than body - some undefinable, totally subjective feeling.