I'm disappointed - Zoe Williams on language

[Pinkfairylights]

An infuriating article smearing women for not wanting the word mother to be excised from discussions around childbirth. We're apparently right wingers who don't believe trans people exist.

www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/oct/14/language-society-trans-people-tolerance-debate-words

That article, is 'the' example of Vichy Feminism

Phoney Feminism = Pheminism

@Sashimimimi

I think Zoe Williams is massively indulged by the Guardian. She knocks out so many pieces that they allow her just to write any rubbish she wants

This. I used to like her writing but now find her smug, glib and tedious no matter what the subject is. She’s basically a tenured columnist so presumably doesn’t need to try to be sharp or coherent anymore.

She's basically the female version of Wee Owen.

Language evolves but words still need definitions

And they need to be arranged in a logical order to make sense

Even I dont think she is as bad a LOJ, and I despise her. She does not bully people, well not in public anyway?

My only printable comment is that I don't give a shit what Zoe William thinks.

😄👍

I read the article and was so disappointed at her use of language. Why should I be called a ‘cis woman’ and why must language evolve that excludes girls and women from our hard won equal rights?

I don't think Zoe Williams signed That Guardian letter, so there's that at least. But generally I think she and The Guardian are well suited.

@Tedimhoardingrightsosaur

Reading the Guardian is like being in an abusive relationship. They will publish the odd article, like the Susanna Rustin one the other day, that makes you think, "They're not so bad, this reminds me of the good old days, I'll stay and hope this is a sign of real change." Next thing you know, they are punching you in the head - again.

...her writing ... gives the strong impression of being cobbled together in 25 mins and is often internally incoherent

Entirely agree. Zoe Williams ought to stick to writing about keeping fit.

I haven't read the article (life is too short). However, ZW is one of the reasons I stopped buying or reading the Guardian after more than 40 years. I remember an article by her when she indicated that there might be issues with the way Islam treats women, particularly around dress, but that she wouldn't add to the criticism because (basically) Islam should be beyond criticism as anything else would be racist. At the same time she was happy to state that the only reason anyone attends a Christian Church is to get their children into a good school. The hypocrisy and muddled thinking seemed to indicate a lot about her view of the world, and particularly of women's rights.

I read the article. Then I read it again. Then I read it again, more carefully. I was trying to find an argument in it, some thread through it. A position which is explained, defended and supported. I did this because I don't believe Williams is an idiot. There wasn't one.

I don't think this is in any sense a contribution to any debate. It's a piece of chewing gum stuck in a leak to give you thinking time. It's place holding by someone who is actually desperate not to have a debate and is hoping that if she flannels enough it will all go away.

Zoe Williams has been annoying me for approximately 13 years.

I remember her claiming that the NHS giving women information on optimum vitamin intake in pregnancy was sexist, and I remember shouting at the (print!) copy of the newspaper that who exactly did she think would be performing lifelong care for a child born with disabilities.

Since then, Zoe Williams has claimed on twitter that we all know we have a cervix.

Well, for one, i think it's absolute horseshit to imagine some class of "vulnerable" women who won't attend their smear test unless they're specifically invited as women. I'd go as far as to say everyone with a cervix knows they have one. So, for two, I think you're doing that >>

twitter.com/zoesqwilliams/status/1362006560118083588?t=pOmta7x3DZQaH4iygfv6NQ&s=19

Which is odd, because the amount of things Zoe has not known about, according to her columns, is phenomenal. From the existence of hayfever, and the need for reading glasses and more. www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/jun/18/i-used-to-think-hay-fever-didnt-really-exist-i-know-much-better-now

Going by her usual columns, Zoe will one day meet a woman with learning disabilities and suddenly realise they exist and should be considered in healthcare planning.

It would be nice though, if for once in her life, she could take in new information without having to personally experience any individual phenomenon herself first.

Middle class privilidge in action. She is taking the place where a good journalist should be.

Well, for one, i think it's absolute horseshit to imagine some class of "vulnerable" women who won't attend their smear test unless they're specifically invited as women.

Bloody hell! She can't imagine women recently arrived (or even not so recently arrived) as migrants, some from disastrously stressful situations, who might not yet have learned enough English to know "cervix", a word many native speakers don't even know? Or a woman who dropped science subjects early and never heard of a cervix? Let alone women with learning difficulties who might struggle with basic reading etc?

Oh how very "inclusive", not. "I can't imagine someone who's not as British, fortunate and educated as me, so they don't exist and can't be excluded or discriminated against."

Basically sheer elitist snobbery. Even OJ should have something to say about that! (Though I agree she's not a twitter bully like him)

@RoyalCorgi

I think Zoe Williams is massively indulged by the Guardian. She knocks out so many pieces that they allow her just to write any rubbish she wants.

She seems to have always been massively over-indulged & encouraged to write arrogant nonsense - it was the same when she was with Associated Newspapers.

Re hay fever she wrote

* It was years before I really believed in it. I thought it was like when people say they have an allergy when really they are on a diet*

She is one of those fools that don’t have views or perspective. Instead they regard what they say as “fact”

Can you imagine how horrifying she would be at a dinner party?

Williams has nothing to say of any interest or note.

This is all, and has been the case for many years.

One side of the debate doesn’t think trans people are real; they might feel what they feel, but the rest of us don’t have to join them in that reality.

No one is saying trans people are not real! Why does protecting the rights of women & girls have to equate with thinking trans people are not real ffs?! They are certainly real. They are trans women. Not biologically women. What is so hard Zoe?!?!

Who "doesn't believe" in hay fever?

Also Zoe:

I always thought people were attention-seeking when they went through that performance of getting their glasses out at the table. Come on, it’s going to be garlic bread, soup and chicken liver pate. Surely you could have guessed that? I didn’t realise how it would feel when the text was swimming about indistinguishably or how rare it is these days that the first sentence is “garlic bread”. Now I realise it’s just as likely to be bread with a medjool date whipped butter, or garlic bread with a cheesy crust. In my pride, I have spent ages ordering things that weren’t there.

www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/aug/16/i-used-to-tut-at-people-who-need-glasses-to-read-a-menu-then-i-joined-them-

I actually thought that piece may have been written after a few glasses of wine had been consumed, but after the comments on this thread about so many other incoherent articles, I am probably mistaken.

She's so incoherent.

@OrangeJuiceAndNoodles

Zoe Williams is an infuriating writer in any case. I always struggle to follow her articles. When I think about how much I dislike The Guardian, I think of her and Owen Jones.

No idea how she's managed to get to her position in life.

Private education and Oxbridge? Oxbridge graduates are hugely over-represented at the Guardian. Fees at the Godolphin and Latymer School are just a tad under the average national salary.

Luxury beliefs distract from her privilege.

@Thulian

Well, for one, i think it's absolute horseshit to imagine some class of "vulnerable" women who won't attend their smear test unless they're specifically invited as women.

Bloody hell! She can't imagine women recently arrived (or even not so recently arrived) as migrants, some from disastrously stressful situations, who might not yet have learned enough English to know "cervix", a word many native speakers don't even know? Or a woman who dropped science subjects early and never heard of a cervix? Let alone women with learning difficulties who might struggle with basic reading etc?

Oh how very "inclusive", not. "I can't imagine someone who's not as British, fortunate and educated as me, so they don't exist and can't be excluded or discriminated against."

Basically sheer elitist snobbery. Even OJ should have something to say about that! (Though I agree she's not a twitter bully like him)

I invite you all to compare Zoe's perspective on whether there are women who won't attend screening if it is marketed at people with cervixes or similar, with her thoughts here www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2009/mar/13/anti-natal-zoe-williams

I really tried to follow her logic. But there isn't any.