A thought about 'cis'

[Fleek]

I was just lying in bed thinking last night and wanted to share what popped into my head with people. I'm sure this has occurred to others (everyone else?) because it's pretty obvious but I haven't seen it written down explicitly anywhere else.

It's about the word 'cis.' Activists are so insistent we use that term ourselves and are labelled that. I've seen women be very articulate about why they hate it and I've nodded along with everything written. All the stuff about how I don't 'identify' as a woman, I am one because of my sexed body, and about how we don't want to be tied to any gender stereotypes that redefine being female as having swishy hair or loving housework or being submissive, etc. etc.

But there is another layer to it. The mantra is transwomen ARE women. If TWAW, then why would this movement want to force a label on us that actually distinguishes us from TW? Surely that's an own goal?

I think actually, it's a way of forcing us into being seen as/taking the position of oppressors. We aren't being branded as 'cis' in order to separate us as just a different type of woman (like the awful way they use 'disabled woman, black woman, trans woman') or just to change the idea of woman into being a gender and not a sex, it's also about firmly telling us we have privilege and are on a higher rung than TW. If we look at oppression Olympics generally, the only way to be a good citizen is to make supplication by publicly labelling your privilege isn't it? Saying 'I'm inadvertently an oppressor but I renounce my sin.' If you are an oppressor it's your job to shut up and sit in the corner. It's your job to hand over your power. You also need punishing, perhaps, if you take this idea to absolute extremes - threatening with violence, assaulting, eliminating, even? Look at Twitter handles. One vocal American actress had on hers for a long while (it might be there still) - 'I punch Nazis'. It's vital we are segregated by this label 'cis' so we can have some of the power we've gained over the last 50 years stripped from us.

It just interested me to think about it.

[quote Blibbyblobby]@DadJoke

If you answer the question "are you a woman?" "yes", that's your gender identity.

I think you are missing the point. Please listen because this is so important.

I can answer the question "are you a woman?" With "yes" only if the word "woman" means an adult human female, ie a simple physical decriptor that has nothing to do with identity.

But if you then tell me that "woman" is not a simple fact of the physical body, then my answer to the above question has to be "I don't know, what is a woman and how can I tell if I am one?"

Do you see the problem? By removing the basis on which most so-called "cis" people would call themself a man or a woman, you make the term "cis" meaningless in practice. It's not enough to say what a woman is not (not a female bodied person, not a social stereotype, etc etc), if you really want cis, and indeed trans, to be a meaningful concept you need to be able to say what she is, so that I, who by your definitions cannot be a woman just because I have a female body, know how to tell if I am one or not.

This is not sophistry. This is not me playing word games. This is a real question I am struggling with. It as important to me as a trans woman's gender is to her. If I am not a woman by my body which is the only reason I previously thought myself one, what is it that I could recognise in myself that would make me one?[/quote]
I love the way you articulate this question. You've put your finger on exactly the thing that has been bugging me. If a transwoman who has a male body and looks male but acts in a sort of pastiche-of-a-woman-kind-of-way and wears women's clothes is a woman, then what am I? Cos I am not the same as them. And i sure as hell am not a cis woman, because i don't identify with that phrase, I dislike it intensely.

Trans women are biological males.
Trans men are biological females.

No amount of identifying, name changing word salad, pronouning or anything else can change that.

Biological males can never be a 'subset' of women, who are biological females.
Why don't we just call everyone biological male or biological female? Is it because it's too triggering? If so, why? Could it be because it reminds people of their true identity which can never be changed?
If TW or TM really believe themselves to be 'real' men or women, why do certain phrases 'trigger' them? Surely they wouldn't care, given that they are 'real' men or women. Why would words matter to them?

Men are not women.
Hilaria Baldwin is not Spanish.
Rachel Dolezal is not black.
Olly London is not Korean.

Identifying 'as' something does not negate true facts of biology.

And most people do actually know this despite the push for a new belief system.

@DadJoke
It's just a shame you can't acknowledge their gender identity.

That's because their gender identity isn't a protected characteristic under the Equality Act, but their sex is. And as far as the Equality Act is concerned, a woman is a female of any age.

Summary of thread so far.

TRAs: Whatever someone says is their identity is the absolute truth and must be affirmed unquestioningly, nobody else is allowed to disagree with their preferred labels, their feelings are sacrosanct!

Also TRAs: Totally trample over people's identities (or lack thereof), slap labels over people's objections, scold people for having unacceptable feelings.

@NiceGerbil

If someone has no gender then which hosp ward/ toilet / prison should they go to?

Or if they're 'gender fluid'? Would they just choose what they felt like on admittance? Could they insist on being swapped around? What if they were unconscious on admittance to a hospital- would the staff be expected to deduce from their appearance what gender the person might be when they awoke?

It's been mentioned elsewhere on MN that there are cases of people who have transitioned, developed dementia and then been confused and distressed about their bodies / gender.

Mentioned here

www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.bbc.com/news/uk-wales-43365446.amp

Thank you, @bordersroaming. I hadn't seen that article but it is very telling, isn't it?

[quote bordersroaming]Mentioned here

www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.bbc.com/news/uk-wales-43365446.amp[/quote]
From the article, re. guidelines for caring for a trans person with dementia:

They also include advice on how to help a transgender person with dementia to maintain their preferred appearance when they can no longer do it themselves.

But what is their preferred appearance if they can't remember transitioning? Isn't this forcing vulnerable people to present as trans in order to prop up the ideology that that's their "true" self?