LBC, Emily Thornbeery

[DublinFemale]

"Trans people are the primary victims of male violence" according to Emily Thornberry on Nick Ferrari on LBC

Trans people are the people who matter. Subject both Irish and UK politicians seem to be happy to agree on.

@aliasundercover

“I’ve made up a fact, and it’s up to you to prove it's not true or you’re all bigots”.

Do not engage.

THIS!

Even if the US was comparable, 0.092% isn't relatively small, it's so small as to be statistically insignificant. The idea that any can draw any conclusions from that is absolutely laughable.

Apologies the title should be Thornberry.

I posted more because Irish and English politicians are currently at loggerheads on most things but are very amenable to throwing women and basic rights under a bus.

I can see Leo V, the Simon's not to mention Donnelly would happily make that same assertion.

All plonkers I might add.

Doubting these reports is just highlighting your own naivety and commitment to a narrative that is fraudulent.

In fact I would go so far as to say, when you have access to robust, widespread information and continue to poo-hoo it - this is verging on conspiracy theory territory, isn't it?

These are not backyard surveys conducted by some crackpot fantasist, these are very rigorously studies / surveys conducted by large teams of professional from multiple disciplines working with tens of thousands / hundreds of thousands of people to establish how crime trends are working.

You can knock yourselves out undermining them; I would expect nothing else. I am sure there are men out there too mocking the surveys highlighting domestic violence against women ' O I wouldn't describe THAT as violent!... O she perceived that as abusive did she? - well that was just her perception, it's not really abuse though is it?....O well, what people don't know is how she started it in the first place...', they don't include that in the figures, do they?)

Of course, knock yourselves out undermining the victims of violence, unfortunately I've come to expect little else from these boards where some people who purport to be challenging the patriarchy appear to spend most of their time aping the patriarchy.

And what some people are essentially saying in this thread is that it is impossible to study this as an area due to figures involved. But I guess that suits a lot of people that just never want to acknowledge the truth - how fortunate to be able to repeat 'Oh, the figures are just too small, we will never be able to really know - we might as well just not try to find out, eh?!'

Of course, this is not true; data found on small numbers of participants can achieve statistical significance, and they did achieve statistical significance for differences in rates of violent victimisation between trans and non-trans people in this work.

Obviously people here have clearly have not studied statistics and are unfamiliar with how information is reported (and also how this can vary between journals that place more emphasis on the usefulness of confidence intervals, for example). You will see, in the link that @CharlieParley has posted, how the P values in the study have been cited - they are detailed for those areas where statistical significance was not achieved, but NOT specified for those differences looked at where statistical significance was achieved (this is possibly a requirement of the journal the results are posted in): eg.

Transgender people experienced violence at a rate of 86.2 victimizations per 1000 persons compared with 21.7 per 1000 persons among cisgender people (Figure 1a; odds ratio [OR] = 4.24; 90% confidence interval [CI] = 1.49, 7.00). These differences remained for men and women. Transgender women and men had higher rates of violent victimization (86.1 and 107.5 per 1000 persons, respectively) than did cisgender women (23.7 per 1000 persons; OR= 3.88; 90% CI = 0, 8.55) and cisgender men (19.8 per 1000 persons; OR= 5.98, 90% CI = 2.09, 9.87), but there were no differences between transgender men and women (Δ = 21.4; SE = 68.7; P = .76

Just going to quote the stars the Babdoc did at the start of the thread. The undisputed, number of dead people, facts.

Number of transwomen murdered in the UK per year by men: zero.
Number of women murdered in the UK per year by men: 188

Doubting these reports is just highlighting your own naivety and commitment to a narrative that is fraudulent.

"Asserting something confidently doesn't make it true." Ereshkigalangcleg, 9.33pm

Of course, this is not true; data found on small numbers of participants can achieve statistical significance

Like the small number of MTF trans people who are convicted murderers? Which in this country is higher than their number who are murdered. Do we want to think about that?

It's only victim of crime numbers that are statistically significant Eresh. Perpetrator of crime numbers are made up or an anomaly or something.

A couple of years ago in this country my female, genetically female, never anything but female friend was murdered & left to rot on the floor by a man. A born male, never said they were anything but male murderer.

Are you saying that any man, genetically male, identifying as not being male, is supposed to a bigger victim of crime in this country perpetrated by men, than my poor left to rot for weeks with stuff shoved round the door to help keep the smell down as she decomposed friend?

Is Emily Thornberry actually saying that?
If she is, then what she is saying should be a hate crime.
I perceive it as such.

Because my friend was just one of many real women who were murdered by men the year she died.
She wasn't even the only murdered real woman in this country that week.
Zero men who say they feel that they are women were murdered that year in this country at all, never mind having to be put through the indignity of having their corpse treated with such contempt.

Doubting these reports is just highlighting your own naivety and commitment to a narrative that is fraudulent.

In fact I would go so far as to say, when you have access to robust, widespread information and continue to poo-hoo it - this is verging on conspiracy theory territory, isn't it?

I think many people (out of context) would in general agree with the above but both context and the remainder of that post make for disturbing reversals as to the posters behaving in that manner.

Several people have explained that UK data are preferred on a UK forum. I understand, however, that this would not serve the narrative you seek to propagate.

A couple of years ago in this country my female, genetically female, never anything but female friend was murdered & left to rot on the floor by a man. A born male, never said they were anything but male murderer.

I'm so sorry.

@EmbarrassingHadrosaurus

Doubting these reports is just highlighting your own naivety and commitment to a narrative that is fraudulent.

In fact I would go so far as to say, when you have access to robust, widespread information and continue to poo-hoo it - this is verging on conspiracy theory territory, isn't it?

I think many people (out of context) would in general agree with the above but both context and the remainder of that post make for disturbing reversals as to the posters behaving in that manner.

Several people have explained that UK data are preferred on a UK forum. I understand, however, that this would not serve the narrative you seek to propagate.

I have provided the UK evidence, and supplemented it with the US evidence. This is relevant because the US study was able to achieve statistical significance, which the study acknowledged is a difficulty for many other studies covering this area:

"NCVS 2017 data showed significant disparities in victimization rates between lesbian, gay, bisexual, and transgender (LGBT) people and cisgender heterosexual people.However, small sample sizes prohibited analyses of LGBT subgroups (e.g., bisexual women or transgender people). By pooling 2 years of data, we report what are to our knowledge the first prevalence estimates of victimization among transgender adults in the United States from a nationally representative sample"

This site wants evidence - well here is the evidence - statistically significant evidence indicating that trans people in America are four times more likely to be victims of crime than non trans people.

This isn't a 5 % increase in likelihood, or a 20% increase in likelihood, or even a 100% increase in likelihood relative to non trans people - it is a 300% increase in likelihood of being a victim of a violent crime - this is absolutely massive.

Yes, the US is not identical to the UK, but it isn't really so dramatically different culturally.

People on this site don't want to accept any evidence - they will reject UK evidence because of who carried it out, or sampling, or other methodological issues; they will reject excellent US evidence, because that's the US and not the UK.

They want to create a framework, and a series of barriers to evidence whereby it is impossible to conclude the truth of what is happening.

There will always be a reason not to see for those who would rather be blind.

Okay suggestionsplease1 how about this:

Number of TW in prison for sex offences 76 out of 129 prisoners overall = 58.9%

Number of women in prison for sex offences 125 out of 3812 prisoners overall = 3.3%

Number of men in prison for sex offences 13234 out of 78781 prisoners overall = 16.8%

MoJ Figures 2019

TW are proportionately more likely to commit and be imprisoned for sex offences than men or women. Damn good argument for keeping them out of single sex spaces, what say you?

@TheWeeDonkey

So we can agree men, then trans people? Transmen or transwomen? Then women?

Women are least likely to be victims of violent crimes, sexual assault, common assault and harassment inside and outside the home?

Well thats fantastic news for women isn't it?

Men, then women, then trans people. www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4375660-Neither-marginalised-abused-nor-vulnerable-ripx4nutmeg-from-The-Glinner-Update

Just cross posting this from another thread

grahamlinehan.substack.com/p/neither-marginalised-abused-nor-vulnerable

Least likely to be victims of hate crimes
Least likely to be murdered
Least likely to kill themselves

Not marginalised, not vulnerable, not at risk

sampling, or other methodological issues

Well yes, "methodological issues" sometimes are inconvenient when people want to push their political hobby horses with unreliable data.

<a class="break-all" href="https://archive.md/OGsFO/again?url=www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2021/03/26/police-officers-victims-almost-half-hate-crime-prosecutions/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank"> Another reportt^ revealed that police officers are victims of hate crime incidents in almost half of all hate crime prosecutions.

Goodness, that is interesting.

Yes, the US is not identical to the UK, but it isn't really so dramatically different culturally.

It is though. That's why you can't use the figures from the US or Brazil or whatever. But just to say that trans people aren't more likely to be murdered than the general population in the US either.

Number of women in prison for sex offences 125 out of 3812 prisoners overall = 3.3%

And how many of those are aiding and abetting a male, to please or appease a violent male, compared to offending on their own?

Obviously people here have clearly have not studied statistics and are unfamiliar with how information is reported

That’s a pretty stupid comment to make on these boards.

Are we sure that lots of that 'crime' against trans people doesn't just consist of being accidentally misgendered during encounters with innocently puzzled counter staff?

Suggestionsplease, how much time have you actually spent in the US at ground level, i.e. not just as a tourist? I went the first time (for work) assuming they were a culture pretty much like our own and came back rattled to the core because they just weren't! Subsequent visits have only led to my seeing fewer similarities, not more.

I guess I thought we were about as similar culturally to the US as the UK is to Australia but I was very wrong.

@Jaysmith71

Number of women in prison for sex offences 125 out of 3812 prisoners overall = 3.3%

And how many of those are aiding and abetting a male, to please or appease a violent male, compared to offending on their own?

I believe theres around 14 or 15 women that were convicted on their own without a partner in crime. Of course some of those with a partner will have done it for their own kicks, but out of the 125 I imagine maybe 20 are just depraved.

This is from memory of something I read recently and no I cannot be arsed googling for it.

@TheWeeDonkey

So we can agree men, then trans people? Transmen or transwomen? Then women?

Women are least likely to be victims of violent crimes, sexual assault, common assault and harassment inside and outside the home?

Well thats fantastic news for women isn't it?

Makes me wonder why I ever worried about my daughter, shes obviously the safest demographic in the entire world.

Also if my experience as a 50 odd year old involves multiple assaults, some rapes, loads of groping and excessive misogynistic comments, leers, whistles blah fucking blah then my God the men do have it hard. Odd that not one has ever mentioned the legion of incidents?