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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

LBC, Emily Thornbeery

74 replies

DublinFemale · 14/10/2021 09:11

"Trans people are the primary victims of male violence" according to Emily Thornberry on Nick Ferrari on LBC

Trans people are the people who matter. Subject both Irish and UK politicians seem to be happy to agree on.

OP posts:
Jaysmith71 · 14/10/2021 16:10

Young men are overwhelmingly victims of crime and its main perpetrators.

UK crime stats are significantly divergent from those of the USA. We have much, much, more petty violence, because we are an unarmed society, and far fewer homicides for the same reason.

suggestionsplease1 · 14/10/2021 16:16

[quote Fariha31]@suggestionsplease1
I cant see how your first link can be correct, as it says men are the least likely to be victims of violence. I know its for America but Im sure there is not that much difference. Men are overwhelmingly the victims of violent crime.[/quote]
This is a survey on criminal victimisation - Criminal victimisation refers to a person being the victim of a violent crime (rape or sexual assault, robbery, aggravated or simple assault) or a property crime (burglary and theft)

I assume you are referring to this point: "Transgender women and men had higher rates of violent victimization (86.1 and 107.5 per 1,000 people, respectively) than cisgender women and men (23.7 and 19.8 per 1,000 people, respectively)." ?

where it gives a figure of 19.8 per 1000? I was a little bit surprised this was lower but actually I would expect fewer rape and sexual assault crimes against men, and the larger number of these crimes committed against women probably bring the overall figure up for violent victimisation against women.

Fariha31 · 14/10/2021 16:22

Men are still overwhelmingly the victims of violence (and the perpetrators as said above) so these stats seem unlikely to reflect anything imo. All stats on violence count rape and sexual assult and still men are wildly over represented.

Fariha31 · 14/10/2021 16:22

Most victims of violent crime are men.

allmywhat · 14/10/2021 16:32

You need to look at the sex-disaggregated data. When you see high figures on violence against trans people it tends to be driven by female trans men (who perhaps often transition because of trauma.)

OldCrone · 14/10/2021 16:35

Feel free to look up the ONS data yourself, I'm not about to do your homework for you.

I did. That's how I could post a link to the datasets I was quoting from. I had tried putting 'trans' and 'transgender' in the refine by keyword search on this page, but got no results.

I have now found that putting transgender in the keyword search at the top of the page gives me 10 results: www.ons.gov.uk/search?q=transgender&sortBy=release_date

None of these are datasets, but as there are only 10 I'll look through them and see if there's any useful information in there.

But 'homework'? How old are you? When adults have a discussion and make claims about data, we are expected to be able to back it up with a source. If you don't have a source, how do you know it's true - and why do you think I should believe you?

OldCrone · 14/10/2021 16:40

It's been very well known for some time now that trans people are far more likely to be victims of crime than non trans people, that is really not in any doubt.

Can you supply a source for this claim?

JustcameoutGC · 14/10/2021 16:58

If violence includes statements of fact and ribbons i aint interested

Cailleach1 · 14/10/2021 17:10

@allmywhat

You need to look at the sex-disaggregated data. When you see high figures on violence against trans people it tends to be driven by female trans men (who perhaps often transition because of trauma.)
Does that mean females who identify as men are the main targets of violence among transpeople?

Is the violence committed before they identify as trans and the resulting trauma may be a factor in identifying out of their womanhood (so they hope they won't be victimised again)?

Or, is the violence committed agains them as females who identify as male?

Cailleach1 · 14/10/2021 17:12

Can a few ribbons about the place be regarded as violent crime? That would be unbelievable considering the tolerance towards the sh1t women have to put up.

TheWeeDonkey · 14/10/2021 17:32

@Jaysmith71

"Emily Thornbeery" is a wonderful image, as she puts her arm round you and says, "You're my best friend. I bloody love you..."
"This one. This one right here is the besht........ Ooh I love this song, who's dancing?"
TheWeeDonkey · 14/10/2021 17:37

So we can agree men, then trans people? Transmen or transwomen? Then women?

Women are least likely to be victims of violent crimes, sexual assault, common assault and harassment inside and outside the home?

Well thats fantastic news for women isn't it?

Clymene · 14/10/2021 18:11

'Transgender victims whose sex assigned at birth was male were more likely to perceive their victimization as a hate crime'.

And

'There were no disparities in reporting victimizations to authorities: only about half of the victimizations of both transgender and cisgender people were reported.'

So transwomen were much more likely to perceive their crimes as hate crimes but only half of them were reported.

I don't think perception is a very reliable indicator of hate crime. We know a very obviously male person being inadvertently addressed as 'sir' is reported as a hate crime when it isn't. It's saying what you see.

Clymene · 14/10/2021 18:13

Anyway to get back to thornbeery as she will henceforth be known, she says victims of male violence.

Are we really suggesting that a man calling an obviously male person sir is male violence?

suggestionsplease1 · 14/10/2021 19:26

@OldCrone I've supplied sources in this thread already to support my assertion, and there plenty others out there reporting the same trend.

Feel free to post your own sources showing that trans people are less likely to be victims of crime and we'll take it from there.

@clymene - this NCVS dataset would not include an instance of a person being mis-gendered as an instance of violent victimisation (rape or sexual assault, robbery, aggravated or simple assault).

Blackandwhitehorse · 14/10/2021 19:54

But how is trans even defined and is it consistently recorded that they are trans? Also men are now being recorded as women so surely most data on it is unreliable because the way language and definitions have been fucked around with?

aliasundercover · 14/10/2021 20:10

“I’ve made up a fact, and it’s up to you to prove it's not true or you’re all bigots”.

Do not engage.

MissLucyEyelesbarrow · 14/10/2021 20:19

@suggestionsplease1

It's been very well known for some time now that trans people are far more likely to be victims of crime than non trans people, that is really not in any doubt.

An American study has indicated they are 4 times more likely to be victims of violent crime:

williamsinstitute.law.ucla.edu/press/ncvs-trans-press-release/

In England and Wales: 'Data from the Office for National Statistics (ONS) shows more than one in four trans people (28%) experienced crime in the year ending March 2020, compared with 14% of people whose gender identity is the same as the sex they were registered at birth.'

www.theguardian.com/society/2020/jul/17/trans-people-twice-as-likely-to-be-victims-of-in-england-and-wales

If you're looking at murders then it is the recording and dissemination of information (police forces often won't pass on details about stats where smaller numbers are involved- as would naturally be the case with a demographic representing around 1% of population- as this could allow identification of individuals) that is obscuring the information on transgender victims in recent years - quote from ONS in 2018 “it is not possible to identify transgender victims in current homicide statistics” and “the sex of a homicide victim is determined by the police force that records the crime”.

Unless you are suggesting that 188 trans people are being killed in the UK each year without anyone noticing, they aren't the primary victims of male violence, as ET claimed, are they? Every homicide involves an inquest, and most lead to a trial, so the victims' lives are scrutinised in detail. If trans people were being disproportionately killed, we would know.

The primary victims of male violence are actually men: they are twice as likely as women to be murdered by men.

OldCrone · 14/10/2021 20:24

I've supplied sources in this thread already to support my assertion, and there plenty others out there reporting the same trend.

As far as I can see you've provided links to two studies in the US (not really relevant to the UK) and one article in the Guardian from 17 July 2020 which mentions some ONS data. There were some ONS data published on that date, but I can't find the figures referred to in the article.

Feel free to post your own sources showing that trans people are less likely to be victims of crime and we'll take it from there.

I'm not claiming anything. You're making the claims. Show some evidence. If you're unwilling to do this, I have no problem with accepting that everything you are unable to verify is made up.

CharlieParley · 14/10/2021 21:00

The full text of the American study (of which there isn't much) is here: escholarship.org/uc/item/7c3704zg

Limitations, as acknowledged by the authors:

Our study is limited by relatively small sample sizes of transgender people, which accounts for large confidence intervals and limits our ability to assess victimization subtypes. We also could not investigate victimization at the intersection of gender identity, race and ethnicity, age, marital status, urbanicity, and other characteristics.

Another study by the same author looking at data from 2017 only makes clear what they mean by "relatively small sample sizes" - for the 2017 sample, there were 211,889 victims of crime altogether of which 194 identified as trans.

To conclude from such a small sample size of 0.092% of the total anything with any certainty is next to impossible. Especially since the authors did not seem to have adjusted for age, income and location in either study. (Amongst victims who identified as trans, the 16 to 34 age group was overrepresented, they mostly lived in urban centres and had lower incomes, all of which puts people at higher risk.)

Furthermore, I'm reluctant to accept data from the US in these debates that centre on UK people, because our situations are not comparable. We have legal protections for people who identify as trans that don't exist in the US, which means that their living situations here are frequently much better than in the US. We also have different policing, justice, health and social care systems, which makes another big difference in people's lives. And, as a PP pointed out, we don't have the same gun culture.

So that referenced study is a preliminary look into limited data, that suggests that people who identify as trans in the US may be victimised more often. It might well be true. The study doesn't deliver evidence, but it still could be true. But even if it was, given the vastly different situations here and there, let's stick to UK data.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 14/10/2021 21:25

Feel free to post your own sources showing that trans people are less likely to be victims of crime and we'll take it from there.

That's not how it works.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 14/10/2021 21:27

Every homicide involves an inquest, and most lead to a trial, so the victims' lives are scrutinised in detail. If trans people were being disproportionately killed, we would know.

Completely agree, it's a ridiculous suggestion that the numbers are out by more than one or two.

AllTheUsernamesAreAlreadyTaken · 14/10/2021 21:30

@suggestionsplease1
You’re talking rubbish.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 14/10/2021 21:33

It's been very well known for some time now that trans people are far more likely to be victims of crime than non trans people, that is really not in any doubt.

Asserting something confidently doesn't make it true.

Grumpyosaurus · 14/10/2021 21:36

Emily Thornbeery.
That has improved the look of my evening.

I'm too knackered this evening to engage in any sort of substantive debate, but I'm bloody sure that if trans people were being murdered, we would know about it.

And in all seriousness, if they were at increased risk, I would want to know because, despite GC to my bloody backbone, there are trans people in my life who I actually care about.