"Women and birthing people"

[ICouldHaveCheckedFirst]

I heard that phrase on R4 this morning, spoken by a consultant midwife.
She used the word "woman" or "women" several times, and only once used the above phrase.
Is this a way of keeping everybody happy?

TBH i am also confused by Transmen living as men and then getting pregnant. I did think that a GRC required you to live in that gender, and men don't get pregnant.

However, I'm fairly libertarian in many respects, and reproductive rights are something that i believe is up to an individual. So confusing and weird as i do find the idea of a transman giving birth, i leave it up to them. I didn't want children, and i absolutely hated it when anyone questioned me on my plans about having children so i try to extend everyone else the same courtesy.

I don't think anyone would care about whether or not an individual female's decision to have a baby regardless of how they identified, unless language was being erased and removed from the 99.9% of females to apparently suit this very small group of females who identify as TM. Between them and their doctors, although I think children's rights to a factual birth certificate should continue to be protected above adult right to have legal documents meet their preference.

So many of these issues would not exist if the same courtesy and care was extended in both directions as opposed to stamping on other people's words and resources and spaces and language and then blaming them for protesting.

I did think that a GRC required you to live in that gender, and men don't get pregnant.

Well, yes. There's no coherent definition of what "living in a gender" means. The people writing these laws thought they new what they meant, and the response to people asking, "well, what does that mean, exactly?" was "well, you know what it means, don't be so pedantic".

I believe in Scotland they're trying to pin it down to "which pronouns people use for you", while simultaneously compelling people to use the pronouns they're told to use.

Part of the confusion here was that all these laws were intended to support people who had a surgical sex change, for dysphoria reasons. So the requirement was just limiting it to the people who needed it.

But it is indeed hard to argue why any man can't call himself a woman or vice versa, if you're going to let some do it.

Tbh on a birth certificate why not just name the parents? Is there a particular reason why they say "mother" & "father"?

I agree that a child has the right to a factual birth certificate. Would it be an issue for those that want them to ggave "birth parent" and the rest of us to have "mother"? It's not something I spend a lot of time thinking about, tbh

Oh I don't know, maybe because the mother has literally done all the hard labour while the father has just ejaculated?

To me, the term 'birthing person' or 'birthing parent' makes it sound like it is something that a couple has discussed and agreed, akin to being a designated driver on a night out. "Go on, you have a drink tonight, it's my turn to drive," vs "Darling, you birthed the last two children, I really think I should do the next one". It's ridiculous.

[Of course, lesbian parents may indeed make this decision, in which case the term 'birthing mother' vs 'non-birthing mother' make absolute sense and describe the reality of the situation. But you can still use the term 'mother']

The best one I've seen so far is "womb carrier" . Very New Age.

Tbh on a birth certificate why not just name the parents? Is there a particular reason why they say "mother" & "father"?

Please someone correct me if I am wrong, but I think there is already an alternative to father for same sex parents.

However, a birth certificate is a record of a birth, and the legal name for somebody who has given birth is ‘mother’. For many reasons I think it is vital that ‘mother’ can have a simple, clear factual meaning.

That doesn’t prevent people from using it on other ways - many words have several meanings.

ok point taken about the "and" but what do you suggest?

If there's a need to include 'birthing parent' then perhaps
Mother/birthing parent would do?

As I understand it, “Mother” has a particular meaning in UK law. It refers to the person who gestated and gave birth to the baby concerned, the gender identity of the mother doesn’t alter the status of that person as mother of a particular baby. Genetics is equally irrelevant so a donor egg won’t change the fact that she who gestates and gives birth is the mother of the baby at birth. This way all babies have a mother, a legally responsible adult from birth.

The concept of mother is basic and understood across human society, whatever the culture language etc for... Ever.

Additionally. Gorillas know it. Mice know it. Elephants know if. Outside mammals. Kangaroos. More? I'm sure there are. I'm not an expert.

The fact that in some countries humans have extended etc the concept / word where mother applies is irrelevant really. I have no problem even slightly with children calling adoptive mum.. mum. Zero issues with birth mother v mum etc. Who would?

The FACT is though that. I have no doubt that most/ all mammals on the planet and through history know what mother means in essence.

And it's an absolute basic. Hugely important.

Watch a nature prog. When a larger female mammal with newborns is shot or similar. Sad doom music. Why?
The babies need their mother. Without her they generally. Will die. Be eaten.
Nature progs young offspring taken from mother. To be sold etc. To humans for pets etc.
Doom music. Why?
Because as mammals we KNOW that it's unconscionable to take young from mother.

In the animal world the taking young in to look after when mother gone etc happens.

@ErrolTheDragon

ok point taken about the "and" but what do you suggest?

If there's a need to include 'birthing parent' then perhaps
Mother/birthing parent would do?

That separates mother from birthing parent.

I am SO TIRED of all this.

Mammals procreate through sexual intercourse. Male female.

That is simply a FACT.

In mammals the female gestates the offspring and gives birth.

In mammals the young are sustained by milk from their mother.

These things have been key in the categorisation of mammals for a really long time. And shocker! Even before humans created these categories- which aren't perfect by any means.

Humans and leopards and pigs and cats. Were doing that for well. Tens of thousands of years?

People can have any beliefs they like - religious, political, delusional, genderist, whatever.
But they have no damned right to insist that the rest of us deny reality in order to accommodate them.

Whatever these people believe, it is a medical and scientific fact that only women give birth. If they have a problem with that, then that’s their problem.
It is not our problem, nor do we need to mangle the English language to try and fix it.