What is this called?

[TreaslakeandBack]

I don’t know a lot about this subject I admit.
I am a feminist who believes that woman = adult human female.
I am not anti trans- people who are born male but feel female should be supported to
live as female if that’s what they want. Same with men. Live and let live.
They shouldn’t be allowed to go in women only spaces unless they have had bottom surgery and full hormones. Same with men.
Women should not be referred to as bodies with cervixes or any other rubbish. Women are women. Men are men.
Trans women are transwomen. Transmen are transmen. Most of the time it won’t matter but in certain circumstances eg sports, single sex clubs and spaces etc they should own it and not try to be something they are not.
I’m not a TERF obviously as that has a very anti trans connection.
What am I?

You are a sane and rational adult who refuses to tell lies for aggressive people, OP. You are a feminist, and therefore will be called a terf.

How are you going to tell who's had 'bottom surgery'?

Really don’t care about the Labour Party 😂, or any other organisations.
I work at a University and although the department I work in doesn’t really get too involved in much I was talking about the recent Lancet article to a colleague. We both felt it was rude to not call us women. I am proud to be a woman and obviously that includes my biology. I have endometriosis and don’t think it’s right that anyone who can’t suffer that should be able to call themselves a woman. It’s a bloody awful
Illness.
I’ve also noticed this pronoun thing on Twitter and a few emails. Not many but am very puzzled by it.

i think if you dress as a woman but still have male reproductive parts, you shouldn't be in female spaces and vice versa.

If you have had all the operations and have a 'vagina' then knock yourself out.

Probably makes me a TERF but I wouldn't go so far as to become violent about it or incite such.

I think many women here share your views.

It's important to bear in mind: while someone who is a religious extremist to their faith may choose to call you a heretic or an infidel for not sharing their faith, and see this as you deserving punishment - it does not make them objectively right. You do not have to agree with, or accept the unpleasant labels they are rude and intolerant enough to try and hand you.

It is their problem, their failure of tolerance and ability to manage mutual respect and diversity. Not yours.

"I am a feminist who believes that woman = adult human female."

I’m not a TERF obviously as that has a very anti trans connection."

You are a terf.

I was gonna link a video by Jelle Dekkers but it seems YouTube deleted his account. Go figure.

Probably makes me a TERF but I wouldn't go so far as to become violent about it or incite such.

Who is inciting violence on the 'Terf' side?

@CherryHug

i think if you dress as a woman but still have male reproductive parts, you shouldn't be in female spaces and vice versa.

If you have had all the operations and have a 'vagina' then knock yourself out.

Probably makes me a TERF but I wouldn't go so far as to become violent about it or incite such.

Well, no man has got a vagina or a "vagina" whatever sex change ops he has. He might have a hole, but not every hole beneath the waistline is a vagina as I presume most on here know.

On what basis does "full surgery" make someone born, grown and brought up male less of a threat to women?

Even if they were no threat to women should we not still consider that they are not female and that they have no right to enter women's single sex spaces even if only to protect the odd woman from minor feelings of discomfort?

To be clear - I believe these men still are a potential threat even post-op, AND even if they arent it is women's perceptions that is most key.

And besides the one thing trans people really don;t seem to want is genital inspections, which means male bodies need to stay out of women's spaces because there is no way of verifying that they are cock and balls free.

Men look like men, even castrated ones, even with wigs and make up.

How would you check bottom surgery had taken place OP?

@Thefartingsofaofdenmarkstreet

Probably makes me a TERF but I wouldn't go so far as to become violent about it or incite such.

Who is inciting violence on the 'Terf' side?

No-one as far as I am aware, but I'd find it hard to condemn someone for inciting violence against misogynistic and homophobic bullies who themselves incite violence against women and lesbians. It is an issue that is important enough to defend your side with force if necessary.

On what basis does "full surgery" make someone born, grown and brought up male less of a threat to women?

Precisely. I think people harm themselves when they have healthy organs removed for cosmetic purposes. That’s sad. But it doesn’t give male people the right to enter women’s spaces, or take our jobs or sports medals. It’s irrelevant.

I think it's problematic to allow access to spaces based on whether they've had surgery. A few years ago I would be handwringing about which males would be "allowed" in but there's no good solution other than separate third spaces.

I think it's a great question. The easiest way to describe my position would be "what some people call TERF / transphobia". I don't think gender critical means much to most people, and I'm not sure I'd fit that description 100%. About 90, maybe. Feminist can mean anything. I've only really managed to summarise my position as believing women need more protection than transactivism can accommodate. That's a lot less than I think, but it's the nub of the most important conversations about this, I think.

A razor toothed harpy.. .. joking.

It makes you a rational person. Someone who can under nuance and biology.

OP, your views are completely reasonable.

And they will also get you called TERF and transphobe (and your husband will also be called a TERF and a transphobe).

Join the club

What am I?

Normal, sensible, rational human being. So yeah, you're a raging terf.

Many people want to divide trans women into those with and those without surgery. Which I understand. I disagree, but I understand. That's where it all started, after all.

Personally, I don't think this is about the men who want to be women, it's about the women whose spaces they want to use, and therefore whose presence in those spaces is crucial to that dynamic. And remember, these will mostly be vulnerable women.

Many women do not want to be around men when they're vulnerable, irrespective of their genital status. Surgery matters nothing if you are triggered by a male presence.

Nor does it matter in sport. Nor does it matter if you want to be counselled in a rape refuge, or if someone is handling your breasts during a mammogram, or intimate care for your elderly mother.

This isn't about granting special privileges to men who demand them. This is about women. And their rights to female only spaces and services. God knows, there aren't many. And those where sex segregation is necessary, are usually due to the fact that the woman is in a very vulnerable position.

This is about women.

But even your stance, which does make a distinction between those men with surgery, and those without, you'd still be considered horribly transphobic.

It's all or nothing, I'm afraid.

I agree with most of what you’ve written OP, but I struggle with the surgery point as I don’t think it makes the individual any less of a threat (if they were already one) and also because it’s just utterly miserable, people butchering their bodies for validation or affirmation or whatever. I wish they’d find some peace in their bodies without putting themselves through that (and still stay in the appropriate spaces for their sexed bodies).

Is gender atheist a thing? I don’t believe in this new religion that worships the individual as a god.

Beautifully articulated as always Datun 💪

Really don’t care about the Labour Party 😂, or any other organisations.

I was just trying to highlight that to people who use the phrase "terf" you would definitely be one, and a transphobe.

Those of us who are called terfs tend to describe ourselves as gender critical. Because our attitude is that gender stereotypes are not important to follow and everyone should present as they wish. Sex cannot be changed though, and people should use facilities appropriate to their sex.

Obviously inciting hatred leading to violent threats or actual violence is both immoral and illegal, I have never seen gender critical feminists do such a thing.

Threats of violence against gender critical feminists are all too common.

Thank you for replies. I hadn’t thought about the surgery aspect like that but I think those who are saying that’s not the way to look at are right. It isn’t a practical way to go about things.
Women’s spaces eg changing rooms should be for those born with XX chromosomes then.
If this becomes a big thing then there will have to be a third space for those who are confused (for want of a better word!).
At the moment it seems pretty rare? I think I have met one trans person in my life and I work with the public.

I've been called a terf for saying what you've said here.

I agree there should be third spaces but TW don't want them because it makes them feel sad if they can't be in women's spaces.

Well, those are my views pretty much. And stripped down to the basics it’s “sex matters”. That belief alone would make you a ‘terf’ in the minds of those that oppose that view. There’s not much you can do about that. Unless you are all for self ID and all that goes with it, you are a terf.

The thing is, it's not just about changing rooms. Logically, you would have to apply the same "bottom surgery" admission criterion to women's health, DV and other services, sports, awards, membership organisations, and shortlists. So you would in effect still be redefining women to include some biological males which makes it impossible to then defend any of our sex based rights. Should a biological male be woman of the year? I think not.

The revoltingly euphemistic “bottom surgery” is irrelevant. Castration, penectomy and the creation of a fistula does not turn a man into a woman.
And, as a doctor, I question the surgical colleagues who perform this - I regard them in the same light as orthopods who amputate healthy legs for people with limb dysphoria. They are trespassing in territory best left to psychiatrists, who should help the patients to come to terms with their beliefs without needing mutilation to “validate” it.
“Gender” is meaningless stereotypes anyway and has nothing to do with sex. If men want to wear dresses and make up, that’s fine, but it doesn’t make them female, nor does it gain them entry to women’s single sex spaces. They need to accept the reality of themselves as gender nonconforming men. Nobody has a problem with that, any more than we mind women wearing trousers.

What am I?

A terf. Welcome to terfville. Most of us hold similar views to your own regarding women are women, transwomen are transwomen and will never be female, but they shouldn't be discriminated against. That doesnt mean they get to use women only spaces though. That's not discrimination its keeping women safe.