Radio 4 Thought for the Day

[BubbleCoffee]

Just heard 'Thought for the Day' on Radio 4. I know it's opinion-based but I was surprised by the conflation of 1. ignorance and 2. holding a different opinion. The speaker was a Rabbi but I didn't catch her name. Her main point was that making a 'mistake' or 'not yet understanding' something is not the same as 'hatred'. All the examples were on trans ideology such as if you accidentally'misgender' someone or don't understand what 'cisgender' means, you just haven't learned yet and aren't being 'hateful'. No mention at all of the possibility that you might know the ideological terms and disagree with them. She mentioned Professor Kathleen Stock in a very patronising way. as though she was ill-informed, rather than very well-informed and still holding a different opinion.

I would agree with that analysis but I doubt it would appease the TRAs who seem unhealthily keen on bullying people into public self-flagellation if they don’t agree with trans ideology.

Very patronising to imply Stock "made a mistake" as opposed to having a considered thoughtfully argued position.

Yes!! It’s so utterly ridiculous - people are one of two sexes and can present however they choose but in some cases biological sex really matter. that is all prof stock is saying and biological sex is not an opinion, it’s reality!!

Don't think, just #BeKind no matter what the costs to others or the harm to yourself and society. Solzhenitsyn would give a good TFTD:

And the simplest and most accessible key to our self-neglected liberation lies right here: Personal non-participation in lies. Though lies conceal everything, though lies embrace everything, we will be obstinate in this smallest of matters: Let them embrace everything, but not with any help from me.

This opens a breach in the imaginary encirclement caused by our inaction. It is the easiest thing to do for us, but the most devastating for the lies. Because when people renounce lies it simply cuts short their existence. Like an infection, they can exist only in a living organism.

We do not exhort ourselves. We have not sufficiently matured to march into the squares and shout the truth out loud or to express aloud what we think. It’s not necessary.

It’s dangerous. But let us refuse to say that which we do not think.

This is our path, the easiest and most accessible one, which takes into account our inherent cowardice, already well rooted…

Our path is not to give conscious support to lies about anything whatsoever! And once we realize where lie the perimeters of falsehood, each sees them in his own way."

honestyculture.com/alexander-solzhenitsyn-live-not-by-lies/]]

The rabbi has a trans child.

It’s following the outdated and ignorant argument that “trans rights” are simply the next phase of human rights to be rolled out.

These people forget that PIE were making claims to human rights for children to have sex at the same time as the lesbian and gay rights campaigns occurred.

One prevailed, the other has almost been forgotten. But the reading for the rejection of PIE’s claim was the same as the reason women are objecting to the trans rights claims i.e. there’s a harmful clash with existing rights. It’s ignorance of history and the ongoing debate, no more, no less.

She signed off using a narrative of what's going on, either people don't have knowledge of the lives of trans people or they're driven by hate. In other words if you don't want to be a hateful bigot, educate yourself and #bekind. Simply disagreeing because you don't agree with the gender identity ideology doesn't seem to be an option in her, ironically, binary world.

What was interesting is the sense that she realises that trans activists are poisoning the well for her child and are causing a decline in the unquestioning acceptance that much of the public used to have. But obviously she doesn't criticise the trans activists. Because she knows they would turn on her next.

Rabbi Laura Janner-Klausner. She has a trans child. I remember a previous thought for the day in which she spoke about this child (who I think then identified as non-binary). She understands this only from the perspective of a parent of a child who identifies as trans, and thinks only in terms of what she thinks is best for her own child and others like them. She is unwilling or unable to see the bigger picture. She has to dismiss people like Professor Kathleen Stock as ignorant and uneducated or admit to her own ignorance about this issue.

I miss thought for the day as I ring my teen to wake them up before I take them breakfast.[evil smile] probably just as well.

Heard this talk before on R4 and I wonder if it is the same person.

The more I think about it the angrier I become over these progressive-identifying people who would destroy the rights of millions of women just so they can give their children what they want. While looking down on the rest of us as ignorant at best, or hateful bigots.

Ah I see it has been answered as to who..

TFTD is ridiculous in only allowing religious "thinkers" and so i CBA to listen to it

I didn't listen to TFTD so this is a somewhat general response - but i find the characterisation of others as "misguided" a frustrating thing in public debate. "I bet you've never met a trans person" comes up so often on twitter etc in response to any position deviating from "TMAM, TWAW, NBAV, TRAHR" and it's such patronising inaccurate BS. Likewise I've heard Helen Joyce in some interview wisely cautioning against GC feminists assuming all who hold the TWAW... position as being under-informed.

Neither #BeKind nor 'educate yourself because you're being unwittingly bigoted' are helpful ways to move forward. It has to be about openly discussing the actual ideas and (especially) the policy implications, doesn't it? Aiming to be (observably) kind or not to be (labelled) bigoted is simply about affirming tribal connections. There has to be space to (respectfully) disagree and challenge the ideas and implications rather than dwell on whether the opponent is bigoted or stupid.

@nauticant

The more I think about it the angrier I become over these progressive-identifying people who would destroy the rights of millions of women just so they can give their children what they want. While looking down on the rest of us as ignorant at best, or hateful bigots.

Absolutely this nauticant.

@OldCrone

Rabbi Laura Janner-Klausner. She has a trans child. I remember a previous thought for the day in which she spoke about this child (who I think then identified as non-binary). She understands this only from the perspective of a parent of a child who identifies as trans, and thinks only in terms of what she thinks is best for her own child and others like them. She is unwilling or unable to see the bigger picture. She has to dismiss people like Professor Kathleen Stock as ignorant and uneducated or admit to her own ignorance about this issue.

I heard her before too. Utterly patronising. She has to think of herself a as 'kind and compassionate' so takes the line that we are all just a bit too stupid to understand the issues, unlike her very clever and kind self.

@BlackeyedSusan you take your teens breakfast??

Neither #BeKind nor 'educate yourself because you're being unwittingly bigoted' are helpful ways to move forward.

And it's ridiculous to suggest that a university professor who has written a whole book about this issue is ill-informed and uneducated. If she wants to criticise Prof Stock's 'beliefs' she should at least have read her book first.

Oh we've listened and understood alright. How many of us are here because we did what they demanded and ''educated ourselves''?

This feels up there with the ''trfs are only trfs because the men are telling them what to say and do'' argument. Tripe, women can think for ourselves. Just because we don't agree with you, doesn't mean we don't understand.

The difference is, we're taking women's needs and safety into consideration, whereas they are not. I probably wouldn't be on this ''side'' if I too viewed women and girls as mere support humans, props to validate boys and men 🤷

Maybe one of these people should sit down with the women sexually assaulted by men in prison. Look them in the eye and tell them that they just ''don't understand properly''

@nauticant

The more I think about it the angrier I become over these progressive-identifying people who would destroy the rights of millions of women just so they can give their children what they want. While looking down on the rest of us as ignorant at best, or hateful bigots.

Your description made me think of Cersei Lannister!

The rabbi has a HUGE agenda and should not be given a platform on R4 to promote it.

I suppose it’s understandable that she is emotionally involved and wants everyone to accept her child into wrong sex spaces based on “gender identity”.
But it’s very wrong of her to ignore the fact that allowing her child in also means allowing in any man who wants entry and claims to be trans.

There are consequences to a blanket “be kind” policy, all of them detrimental to women. It is beyond arrogant to dismiss GC feminists as ignorant bigots - we are the only ones speaking up for safeguarding of women and girls. And we are far better informed on the issues than she appears to be.

@wavingwhilstdrowning

The rabbi has a HUGE agenda and should not be given a platform on R4 to promote it.

Agree completely. People are using Thought for the Day to disseminate political messages. Wasn't there even an anti-abortion TFTD not so long ago? It's not on. The BBC is supposed to be impartial.

No mention at all of the possibility that you might know the ideological terms and disagree with them

Yes, I thought that, too!

But nevertheless, I found myself thinking that at least here was a moderate opinion, asking for dialogue, rather than #nodebate. Shows how deep we are in this morass.

And I was thinking about how we need to find a way to talk about the general issue of transgender activist ideology (gender extremist ideology) without it being seen as an attack on individual transgender people.

It seems to me that the difference between transactivist extremist ideology and, for example, gay liberation - say the equal marraiage debate - is that gay liberationists have never asked ME, as a stright woman, to change the way I talk about my sexuality, nor have they required that I NOT talk about my sexuality. Similarly, the equal marriage activism was to include same sex marriage, not erase heterosexual marriage.

For those who want to listen, it's at 1hr 49 minutes in:

www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/m0010gx9

But did you hear Justin Webb later referring to Doc Stock being 'falsely' accused of transphobia? They will be after him...