Is this not blindingly obvious or am I missing something- trauma.

[FionaMacCool]

I have never started a thread on here before, and feel wary dipping my toe in.

I dont remotely have the depth of knowledge of feminism that others here have, but I do understand developmental neurology.

I thought this was interesting piece of research "Negative body experience in women with early childhood trauma: associations with trauma severity and dissociation" .
Link: www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/20008198.2017.1322892

Quote: "Several domains of body experience may be negatively influenced or damaged as a result of early childhood trauma"
and
Quote: "victims of repeated traumatic events in early life often develop negative body-related attitudes, such as body shame (Andrews, 1997), feelings of disgust or hate towards their body or parts of it associated with trauma (Fallon & Ackard, 2002; Vogt, 2012), body dissatisfaction and lack of body esteem (Wenninger & Heiman, 1998)."

Does this not seem to suggest, that body dysphoria, should be treated with compassion and investigation first, before proceeding to medication and surgery?

That's not "conversion therapy" - it's a professional investigation to ensure that the full picture is clear.
Especially as many people who identify as trans initially, then desist.

I am struggling to formulate a question around this, as it seems blindingly obvious to me, that the logical implication of this, is, to provide a non-judgemental but safe space for people to discuss their dysphoria.

It seems blindingly obvious

I would say however that mental health support is expensive and time consuming with no profit whereas medicalisation for life is a pharmaceutical companies best case scenario

Oh gosh, midge that's a very bleak, but plausible explanation.

Helen Joyce eludes to this in her book. It's almost like surgery is conversion and the easy route as it eliminates many gay people (studies in the book show that 95% of those asking for surgery would eventually desist and present as gay). Counselling is exactly what people need but as @midgedude says it is long term and time consuming and in an era of what anyone says they are goes, is often seen as phobic if the identity the person says they are is not confirmed and accepted.

I haven't read Helen's book (yet).

However, whether or which, I cannot understand any clinician referring onward for surgery /medication if they are aware of this (not new) research.

Or, is this issue, that clinician's dont feel that they can adopt a questioning approach?

Yes it's the questioning. It's seen as phobic. This is why self ID needs to be stopped in its tracks when it comes to accessing spaces and services in lieu of further investigation.

The 'you question this and my child / I will commit suicide' rhetoric is thrown about but this stat is not what it seems either. You will enjoy Helen's book, it tackles this at great length.

Yes. The FIRST thing we should be thinking when a child shows distress around their body or disassociation into an alternative identity is "what happened that has caused this distress"... not "oh my goodness they are trans"

I suspect the "Gender, A Wider Lens" podcast probably talks about this in their back catalogue. I haven't really got into it yet but have heard one if the hosts of that podcast tall about trauma and gender dysphoria on another podcast.

You may find some of the whistleblowers from the Tavistock and the tweets and threads from Keira Bell's court case interesting reading. It has been repeatedly acknowledged that children with Autism, trauma and a history of abuse are over represented in the population presenting to the Tavistock for treatment for gender dysphoria, which means in essence being put on the pathway for blockers, hormones and surgery.

The Tavistock has acknowledged they are not recording or meeting the needs of this population.

The TQ+ political lobbies are pushing hard to get LGB conversion therapy extended to include anything other than affirmation, and then banned.

This is in the face of people like Keira pointing out the permanent lifetime harm they experienced from a lack of questioning, and other less harmful and permanent approaches being offered as the first stages of treatment, including exploring why she felt that transition was her answer.

Right- I have reserved her book at the library, but may break down and buy it before then.

I think, from the general tenor on here, that her book is quite well referenced and careful? Is that right?
Because whenever I stick my head out, I want to have facts and research to back up my ideas.

I'm in Ireland, and it isn't a feature of general conversations here yet.
Whenever I bring it up (tangentially) there's a little roll of the eyes, and a move on to the next topic. Nobody seems to have engaged with it, unlike the Janice Turner's and the Kathleen Stock's. Stella O'Malley and Iseult White dont seem to have the same reach here.

Exactly @WomaninBoots- the first place one should look, is the family context, and the child/teen/ young adult's history.

You dont have a link to that podcast by any chance?

gender-a-wider-lens.captivate.fm/episodes/8#showEpisodes

It is Stella O'Malley and Sasha Ayed.

@Artichokeleaves
"The TQ+ political lobbies are pushing hard to get LGB conversion therapy extended to include anything other than affirmation, and then banned."
...see this is what worries me.

Over here, (lucky us ) we have a Govt minister, conflating the abhorrent practice of denying someone's same-sex homosexuality, with investigating dysphoria.

"Legislating for a ban on conversion therapy will send a clear and unambiguous message to everyone that a person’s sexual orientation, gender identity or gender expression is not up for debate." www.irishtimes.com/life-and-style/health-family/roderic-o-gorman-conversion-therapy-is-a-cruel-process-rooted-in-the-promotion-of-shame-1.4675905

I said on another thread, that I naively thought that politicians tend towards being intelligent. Perhaps I am too kind?

[quote WomaninBoots]gender-a-wider-lens.captivate.fm/episodes/8#showEpisodes[/quote]
Thank you

Hi OP, love your username . I'm also in Ireland, looking on jealously at the discussions being had across the water. There really isn't any media discourse over here bar a few random stories.

Hopefully if we keep chipping away at it, people will eventually start to see what's really happening, but it's a long way back from the abyss. I think for some it's too big, it's too much to contemplate, and they think you must be a mad conspiracy theorist to keep talking about it.

Watching several interviews with detransitioners online (teenage girls who transitioned to transmen, and then desisted) so many of them have trauma from childhood, comorbidity issues, self harm, depression, etc etc. None of which was considered by the gender clinics. They were simply given hormones and put on a path to surgery. Where are the medical ethics? It's horrible.

Ah thanks @CreepingDeath , this old thing? I got it in Penneys

Ethics!- that's it exactly.
To go back to the piece of research I linked to; I cannot imagine a clinician who has read that, who wouldn't send the client off for a comprehensive trauma-informed assessment before proceeding with anything else.
It's anathema to do otherwise.

Yes Michele Moore's research touches on aspects of this.

Notably that in MH pathways, as soon as the yp starts to latch on to gender identity, the people helping (clinicians et al) throw their hands up and proclaim, that's what it is!

Not the anxiety, trauma, anorexia, depression and any number of other things we've been looking at... problem solved! And that dominates the narrative going forward.

Good talk:

m.youtube.com/watch?v=hqKRBgSDDoQ

To go back to the piece of research I linked to; I cannot imagine a clinician who has read that, who wouldn't send the client off for a comprehensive trauma-informed assessment before proceeding with anything else.

Countries are, one-by-one, adjusting their protocols to do what you say - requiring that all other issues are addressed before considering transition. Sweden and Finland are in the lead, I believe.

I understand that the Netherlands, who pioneered puberty blockers, also had quite strict requirements in this area.

It's the quacks in the US, and their enablers in WPATH who really latched onto the physical treatments as a "cure-all" and are using it as an excuse not to look at the whole picture.

And I do struggle to understand why. Something about this makes people throw out everything they know about psychology, childhood development, well, everything...

Yes, it seems blindingly obvious to many of us.

Yup.

I recommend you read this article by Glosswitch on the subject.

www.newstatesman.com/politics/2016/08/anorexia-breast-binding-and-legitimisation-body-hatred

[quote PurgatoryOfPotholes]Yup.

I recommend you read this article by Glosswitch on the subject.

www.newstatesman.com/politics/2016/08/anorexia-breast-binding-and-legitimisation-body-hatred[/quote]
Wow.

"The truth is that very few female people can accept their bodies as long as ownership of a female body- failure to starve it away or crush it, or have it surgically corrected - is taken as implicit consent to be treated as a member of the inferior class."

NecessaryScene: "Countries are, one-by-one, adjusting their protocols to do what you say - requiring that all other issues are addressed before considering transition. Sweden and Finland are in the lead, I believe."

But in Ireland, the land of always being ten years behind , we are currently carrying on full blast and even extending self-id to 16 year olds.

Obviously we don't allow them to drink, smoke, have sex or get married. But take strong medication, on demand, carry on

op, I presume you have seen www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4370309-Jesus-this-is-the-most-disturbing-thing-i-may-have-ever-read-on-so-many-levels

In answer to your question looking into the underlying issues is watchful waiting (what we used to have) it's now considered transphobic conversion therapy 🙄🤔

@CreepingDeath

Hi OP, love your username . I'm also in Ireland, looking on jealously at the discussions being had across the water. There really isn't any media discourse over here bar a few random stories.

Hopefully if we keep chipping away at it, people will eventually start to see what's really happening, but it's a long way back from the abyss. I think for some it's too big, it's too much to contemplate, and they think you must be a mad conspiracy theorist to keep talking about it.

Watching several interviews with detransitioners online (teenage girls who transitioned to transmen, and then desisted) so many of them have trauma from childhood, comorbidity issues, self harm, depression, etc etc. None of which was considered by the gender clinics. They were simply given hormones and put on a path to surgery. Where are the medical ethics? It's horrible.

It's the same here in Canada, I just don't even have a clue how to start, with the media refusing to even address it.

Here's New Zealand shifting. And they're pretty Woke, as I understand it.

Psychiatrists Shift Stance on Gender Dysphoria, Recommend Therapy

A new position statement from the Royal Australian and New Zealand College of Psychiatrists (RANZCP) stresses the importance of a mental health evaluation for people with gender dysphoria — in particular for children and adolescents — before any firm decisions are made on whether to prescribe hormonal treatments to transition, or perform surgeries, often referred to as "gender-affirming care."

I get a sense that people know new WPATH guidelines are coming that may be along these lines.