Is this not blindingly obvious or am I missing something- trauma.

[FionaMacCool]

I have never started a thread on here before, and feel wary dipping my toe in.

I dont remotely have the depth of knowledge of feminism that others here have, but I do understand developmental neurology.

I thought this was interesting piece of research "Negative body experience in women with early childhood trauma: associations with trauma severity and dissociation" .
Link: www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/20008198.2017.1322892

Quote: "Several domains of body experience may be negatively influenced or damaged as a result of early childhood trauma"
and
Quote: "victims of repeated traumatic events in early life often develop negative body-related attitudes, such as body shame (Andrews, 1997), feelings of disgust or hate towards their body or parts of it associated with trauma (Fallon & Ackard, 2002; Vogt, 2012), body dissatisfaction and lack of body esteem (Wenninger & Heiman, 1998)."

Does this not seem to suggest, that body dysphoria, should be treated with compassion and investigation first, before proceeding to medication and surgery?

That's not "conversion therapy" - it's a professional investigation to ensure that the full picture is clear.
Especially as many people who identify as trans initially, then desist.

I am struggling to formulate a question around this, as it seems blindingly obvious to me, that the logical implication of this, is, to provide a non-judgemental but safe space for people to discuss their dysphoria.

It's the quacks in the US, and their enablers in WPATH who really latched onto the physical treatments as a "cure-all" and are using it as an excuse not to look at the whole picture.

The influence from the US is a serious issue. Both via the social media routes impact on teens and children (and adults) and also from WPATH who are not a 'real' professional body in the way that you'd have an international body of consultant endocrinologists etc. It's a self organised group. In between you have medical insurance companies and private healthcare. It's not difficult to see how this all links together. 💵

Plus all the other motivations that I'll get deleted for.

@TurquoiseBaubles yes, thank you, I am on that thread...that's a tragedy.

Good to know @NecessaryScene. Over here, if I have brought up the issue with Psychiatrists (tangentially, over lunch, like, in a very nice way)- it's all about, "well then how do you treat the person who thinks they're in the wrong body and cant leave the house?" and the conversation swiftly moves on.

Actually, I've just looked at the paper you've referenced:

"Psychiatrists should act in a manner which is supportive, ethical, and non-judgmental.
Comprehensive assessment is crucial. Assessment and treatment should be evidence-informed, fully explore the patient’s gender identity, the context in which this has arisen, other features of mental illness and a thorough assessment of personal and family history. This should lead to a formulation. The assessment will be always responsive to and supportive of the person’s needs." [My bolding for emphasis]
www.ranzcp.org/news-policy/policy-and-advocacy/position-statements/gender-dysphoria August 2021

I do also think Keira has had a big impact here.

That case is ongoing here but raising this to the level it was raised to made people sit up and take notice.

@WarriorN I despair about (well, not despair, but am disturbed by) the influence of social media.

Unfortunately, the major companies are built by-and-for the needs of straight white men. Men who are technically brilliant but dont have the emotional intelligence to foresee how the upsides of their inventions are also weaknesses that can be exploited.

I do also think Keira has had a big impact here.

Absolutely. The total failure of the other side to bring any evidence when it mattered made clear that we're not the cranks here. They really are wearing no clothes.

Yes. I've just read Kiera's story. Worth looking at OP.
www.persuasion.community/p/keira-bell-my-story

The thing is, there's a huge way to go.

I've been astounded at the comments by the psychologist (?) in the Webberly case (can't remember her name, blonde.) in her Ted talk she believes so much in the actuality of being trans based on sexist stereotypes that I worry that too many people in professional positions (and general public) really do believe this ideology is cutting edge science. And the "dangers" (suicide etc) are real, when they're exaggerated and so tangled with all the other issues.

It will take a long time to reverse the belief and impact of those beliefs to a situation where the least harm and most care is taken for individuals.

"That case is ongoing here but raising this to the level it was raised to made people sit up and take notice."
Do you think so, Warrior?

Where the US/UK lead, Ireland will eventually follow, without taking note of the mistakes along the way.
We, in our "best little country in the world" mindset, follow blindly and make the same mistakes all over again.

The assessment will be always responsive to and supportive of the person’s needs.

The other side of the coin is that It's been known for a long time that 'notes on what to say to get what you want' are swapped on forums. Detransitioners have spoken about this. Also The mermaids residentials for example.

There's also the other issue of those with more nefarious purposes.

The stats around depression and suicide post transition need to be raised more in the National and international consciousness.

Oh, OP, if you're new you probably missed these.

Dr David Bell worked for the Tavistock, and was involved in trying to get to the bottom of this stuff.

Since retiring (last year?) he's been speaking out, and has been involved in some cases like Keiras.

Here he is being excellent on Channel 4, speaking about issues surrounding "gender" trouble.

‘Children have been very seriously damaged’ by NHS gender clinic, says former Tavistock staff governor

You'll find a lot more of him in the excellent documentary by Vaishnavi Sundar. (That got some attention, but seems to have been rapidly forgotten?)

One particularly good bit I liked (part 2, 25 minutes in):

... the centrality of guilt - that any child who has real mental suffering, parents who are reasonably in touch, feel terrible! And they feel responsible.

And they can't be completely non-responsible either.

You know, you can't say to parents: "Oh no, no, no, it's nothing to do with you". But you can help families try to understand how things have got to this place.

So parents who feel very guilty, I think sometimes, if the child said... if all the difficulties get reprogrammed through the prism of gender - so now everything is gender. It's not depression, it's not autism, it's not trauma in the past that the family may feel guilty about. It's gender. And that's a completely separate thing.

That has a consequence of relieving the parents of guilt. So the parents may even join up and say: "yes, we support you in being trans" for unconscious reasons. Not because they're bad people, but for reasons they themselves don't understand.

But again, the services don't question that. And the parents who do question it, may have real concerns, are othered. So these tyrannical organisations, which do not see themselves as tyrannical, are to some extent unwittingly exploiting the vulnerability of parents.

fiona, I think it must be, if not least the fact it was brought to court.

It takes time to filter through and affect policy change though.

I'm suspicious of the U turn by Bowers for example.

It's worth watching all three trans train documentaries, Swedish films but also mention the Tavistock.

Part one

It is blindingly obvious that for anyone who experiences gender dysphoria, there is a a psychological explanation.
The idea of ‘true trans’ is a nonsense, because we are not male and female souls inside our bodies, we are our bodies. The whole idea that some people’s psychological distress is because they’re in the wrong sexed body, and that changing their body will alleviate their distress, is rooted in the worst kind of medical sexism. A belief that females have a different kind of mind.
I haven’t seen many transgender patients, (I live in a rural backwater): but the majority of the dysphoric girls I have seen are girls with previous mental health issues, likely related to a history of trauma and abuse. They truly are the most vulnerable in society.
It is medically negligent not to properly explore their feelings about their body, and consider the reasons for their dysphoria, before concluding that life altering medication and surgery are an appropriate treatment.

This is part 3 (sorry!)

Part 3

Sorry 2

@NecessaryScene I'm not new to this, I have lurked here a long time- I would have been on the original Spartacus thread (2016ish?).

One of our professional healthcare representative bodies in Ireland, has gone the whole "men can get pregnant too" and adding pronouns to emails.
It feels like the enforced belief mentality of the RC Church that we imagine we have thrown off here.

So, when I read the research in my OP, I am discombobulated.
How on earth can you go wholeheartedly into affirmation of identity if you are a clinician?
It just boggles my mind.

Oh thank you @WarriorN, so good of you to look those up.

In number 2, they talk about the fact there's no actual evidence that transition and hormones help with mh.

It's trendy social justice Fiona. They'll have had a talk from from diversity group.

I've just seen a craft makers fb group raving about pronoun badges someone has churned out and the good these will do in the world.

That's it exactly @terfinginthevoid

I live in a rural-ish area also, and the few transgender patients that I have seen, have had co-occuring issues.
It would be highly unethical of me and dangerous to the child, to ignore those, and to advise parents to affirm only. I must legally and ethically, prioritise the well-being of the child.
If you work in a family-system way, then it is impossible to isolate the child from their context.

But, I need research, solid gold studies, to back up my position.

I find this all so sad. I can't stand that this is all going on. Young children teens being allowed blockers at 13 worries me.

Unfortunately there's only fledgling research. Some people have had proposed research shut down (someone at Bath, can't remember his name, but his proposal to look into detransitioners was refused by the university as they were worried about it being anti trans.)

That was James Caspian.

I forget what the current state of his case is. Story from February:

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2021/02/05/psychotherapist-blocked-studying-trans-regret-takes-case-european/

Thanks Nec