How to deal with writing group's lack of support for my GC feminism.

[JennieLee]

I've been in a writing group for over a decade.

In my region it has a reasonably high profile and features a number of published authors. I am one of them. (Small press stuff. Nothing major.) There is supposed to be an equal balance of male and female members.

I'd noted a shift towards the terminology of gender identity politics in recent years. For example a lot of a discussion as to whether someone's character - who was very shy - could be described as asexual.

We're mainly white and most people are middle-aged or older. We had a discussion about trying to broaden/diversify members and in that context a woman (about my age, lesbian) suggested in email that we tried to recruit non-binary' members.

I sent a reply stating bluntly that I didn't believe people were non-binary. There were two sexes and those who identified as NB were self-obsessed and in the grip of a reactionary ideology. I gave the example of a friend's daughter who identifies as non-binary because she likes make-up but is studying engineering - and wants her mother to use they/them pronouns.

The person who wanted non-binary members said I was being anti-gay and ridiculous. She also mistakenly added an invitation to a young, straight, black guy - straight, middle-class academic. Being called ridiculous upset me so I asked the people in charge of running the group for a bit of support that my position was not ridiculous. This failed to arrive.

Meantime the new invitee said he couldn't possibly join the group having read my email. It wouldn't be a safe space for him. I emailed him and said that it was a pity an informal discussion had been forwarded to him. My views were personal ones, not that of the group and that I would welcome any new member and their writing, regardless of my personal views on gender identity.

He wouldn't budge - and at this point I felt the fact that no one in my group was willing to join in the discussion - I absolutely didn't expect people to agree with me but thought we should look at the issues - meant I should resign.

But somewhere it grieves me, because I felt these people were friends and would want to carry on the conversation. I also felt that as writers they would care about language, and want to weigh up ideas.

Any thoughts? Any advice? I have vaguely wondered about trying to set up an online writing group for GC women.

Just resign. This sounds like a huge waste of your time and energy. In my experience, writing groups are only beneficial for the weakest links, who get plenty of time and advice from the better and more established writers (like you).

Oh dear. I think you could have been a bit more diplomatic. Not that I disagree with you but for peoole not up to date with all this you probably just came across as mean. Not sure what you can really do about it now though! I would want a writing group to be open to everyone and not try and police anyone's language so I wouldn't have a problem with any new members as long as they didn't try and censor topics.

It's a writing group - surely the whole point of being in a writing group, or writing stories, is to write about all kinds of characters?
Not just ones you '' agree'' with.
Don't know what you thought would happen when you called people self obsessed to be honest.
You're entitled to your views but it was a strange context to bring them up in.

Oh dear. I think you could have been a bit more diplomatic. Not that I disagree with you but for people not up to date with all this you probably just came across as mean.

^This. I'm totally GC, but I don't think I would have been quite so scathing about non-binary people at the outset at the mere suggestion by one member that nb people could be encouraged to join.

Ultimately a group can set its own parameters (legally, obviously). There's no reason why the new member should want to join the group if he feels it will be unsympathetic. Especially if his work is highly autobiographical which it will be They have chosen what he represents over you and that's their prerogative.

None of this means I don't agree with everything you say. But there's a a reason why most of us think long and hard before speaking up. Not everyone agrees with us and it is a major faultline.

Anyone coming to this debate for the first time would have seen your email and saw the words self obsessed and then saw you launching into a character assassination on your friends daughter.

What did you expect really?

If you'd gone down the line of explaining why you found the concept problematic rather than actual individuals you might have had a chance. As it is, you've put all their backs up so I'd say you've none...

I think you were controlling and unkind. Why do you feel only people whose lifestyles you agree with should be in the writing group? Why do you want to only spend time with people who has the exact same views on gender as you? What if someone was of a different faith to you? A different political world view? Are they okay to join- and if so, why do you feel that you have a right to publically judge someone's gender, specifically?
You should leave the group.

It depends how much you want to stay in the group, OP.
If you are keen to stay, you could simply message them and say that obviously you will all have to agree to disagree on gender ideology - that you don’t accept “non binary” is logical or real, that humans are all one of two sexes, and gender stereotypes are demeaning, but you are happy to continue to work with fellow writers who deny biology, and will not criticise their beliefs publicly.
If you find that it would be impossible to continue while biting your tongue, then you would be better to leave and start your own group of more like minded writers.
Maybe invite Simon Edge, writer of The End of the World is Flat - a hilarious satire on gender ideologists, portraying them as flat Earthers!

I’m sorry OP, I’m also as GC as they come but I think phrasing your response like that it was inevitable that ppl who knew nothing about the issue would be taken aback and immediately peg you as just being ‘mean’ about a friends daughter

They didn't ask for your opinion on non binary people though did they? It's all well and good saying to the guy you'd make people feel welcome but your disdain for non binary and gender non conforming people is palpable - so I very much doubt that you'd keep your feelings hidden in reality when confronted by such a person.

You are ridiculous and I'm not surprised the group leaders didn't back you up.

@lazylinguist

Oh dear. I think you could have been a bit more diplomatic. Not that I disagree with you but for people not up to date with all this you probably just came across as mean.

^This. I'm totally GC, but I don't think I would have been quite so scathing about non-binary people at the outset at the mere suggestion by one member that nb people could be encouraged to join.

Same. It does seem a bit of an overreaction. I assume you were worried that inviting people who identify as non binary to the group might lead to policing of language, but surely you tackle that subject instead? The target of your anger seems a little misplaced, especially if you wanted to get others onboard

Sorry, missed where you said trying to recruit new people and just saw about characters - agree with pp in that anyone should feel welcome to join

I’m openly GC and think your response was too far tbh, there are ways to express your views in a measured way that doesn’t exclude people. It’s not a single sex group, so really what does it matter if people in the group identify as non-binary. While I might think it’s nonsense in a mixed sex setting I wouldn’t want to exclude anyone because I didn’t agree with the way they express their identity. Self absorbed is as strong in tone as ridiculous - you can’t claim offence without recognising that your own language was offensive in tone too.

If you want a GC writing club then starting one may be a good idea, but gatekeeping another group isn’t on.

Agree, maybe it’s time to find a new writing group, I think a group of GC writers would be great, you could really focus on female perspectives and experiences or exploring the impact of gender identity etc in your own ‘safe’ space!

I know you’ve known these people for ten years and it probably feels like a loss but do you really want to be in a group where you don’t feel comfortable to share your views going forward, which is the situation you’re in now realistically? Okay, you were pretty blunt and I do think it can be good to ‘caw canny’ with GC stuff, but open debate doesn’t seem to be on the agenda.

Have you actually resigned already or are you just thinking about it?

This could be a catalyst for a new focus/voice in your writing, so I would frame it as that and see it as a positive.

I think you should realise that probably most of the people who read your email were in total agreement, but, are terrified of speaking out on this subject.
If it was me I would do one of two things depending on how much I wanted to be part of the group. Either resign, who needs that stress or just carry on as if nothing has happened (its this guy decision not to join and nothing to do with you, if he is passive-aggressive trying to victimise you by suggesting your views on 'genders' are affecting him, a straight man, then thats for him to explain) and if anyone has an issue with you then its up to them to explain why.

Wrtiting groups should have no truck with censorship.

I would have been more measured in my response I’m afraid. It’s not a win friends type approach. You can leave, you can apologise or you can just keep your head down for a while. Whatever you think of non binary it would be quite sensible to look for a diversity of views so I would write a nice short apology that says you do agree with the sentiment that adding diversity of input is a good thing and suggest a couple of people? It sounds very token but can you come up with any gay or lesbian suggestions?

I understand why you felt you could write such a frank response to the suggestion to purposefully seek out non-binary writers. Writing groups work best when you trust each other and honestly give your feedback. I was in a writing group with other writers, both published and unpublished for years in the past, and yes, these people did come to feel like friends. It can be quite raw to ask others for feedback for your work and there's not much point in wasting your time with niceties I always felt, because that's just not productive or helpful. And allowing yourself to be that vulnerable, and being invited to critique by others making themselves vulnerable, it creates a bond, especially after years of doing it.

I may have reacted in a similar way to others in your group to your reply though, if I hadn't known about the issue, because it sounds harsh to call others self-obsessed and in the grip of a reactionary ideology and mean to then be scathing about a young woman you know.

You're in a writing group and you've produced a piece of writing that your fellow writers don't get. They've reacted to what they see in your writing and the feedback is not good. The language you chose to express yourself was harsh, so is the response. It's as simple as that. Appealing to the group's leaders for support would be as pointless in case of actual work-in-progress feedback as it is now.

Because as much as you are entitled to your opinion, so are they.

Remember, you need to take your audience with you. And you didn't do that. You assumed both knowledge and beliefs in your readers that they don't have.

So that I think is where you're at. Is it fixable? Not without an apology from you. Your response to a fellow writer's well-intentioned suggestion for the benefit of the group was hurtful. Needlessly so. And now you're asking the group leaders to support your hurtfulness. But that's where writing groups stand or fall. Robust critique, yes. Being mean and hurtful, no. The latter drives people away in the long-term, and it isn't productive or constructive either. I think right now you're benefiting from being a longstanding member of the group, otherwise you may well have been asked to leave by now.

So, you need to decide, how important is this group to you? How was previous conflict handled? No writers group exists for a decade without a few, rather robust disagreements occurring along the way. Can you swallow your pride and indignation and put yourself in the shoes of your fellow writer, the lesbian woman who made the suggestion? Put yourself in the shoes of the group leaders and reassess the situation?

If you decide to leave, I would recommend doing so only after apologising to your fellow writer and to the group leaders. Don't burn your bridges and try to leave on good terms.

Sounds as if you went in with both feet flying and without an awful lot of awareness of what you were getting into. But what's done is done. Best thing is to leave now and start up a GC writers group. You may be surprised by how many people leave the old group to join you.

I've had to leave a book group where it became clear that several of the members had gone woke and were policing what could be expressed. My partner has left a women-in-tech group where transwomen were admitted. We have also eased our way out of a lesbian group that used to meet up at weekends for events, walks and weekends away. We posted a couple of mild, reasonable GC articles in the FB group and were met with a wall of silence and disapproving looks.

We've now formed a feminist book group only open to genuine feminists and that's thriving. My partner's started a new women-in-tech network with strict adult human female policy and in which GC feminist values are paramount, and we'll be getting a GC lesbian group together. This is the way you fight back.

Maybe you should point whoever accused you of being 'anti-gay' at the recent Gawker piece calling 'cis gay men' who aren't sexually attracted to transmen and want to maintain single-sex spaces 'the most obnoxious demographic on the planet'.

Interesting that CharlieParley has suggested an apology is in order. No one in the group is non-binary and nor was the prospective member copied into an internal discussion. It is odd really that a woman should be expected to be sorry for baldly stating scientific fact. I have been remembering that a former member - a man - used to be a member of a fringe socialist group and everyone reacted to his regular rants with both tolerance and affection. Whereas for women it is not about being honest. or stating deeply held beliefs. Instead we must at all times #BeKind...

I actually think CharlieParley wrote you a brilliant reply - it’s interesting that what you took from it was a bristling at the idea of an apology. They did not say “apologise for your beliefs” but apologise for the aggressive tone of your response and putting the group leaders in a difficult situation by asking for their support that your response was appropriate.

Your response to a fellow writer's well-intentioned suggestion for the benefit of the group was hurtful. Needlessly so. And now you're asking the group leaders to support your hurtfulness.

Given that sex is binary - we are all either female or male - it is absurd to suggest we should invite writers who are neither male nor female to join us. That is the bottom line.

I think what you said was a little out of line, although I'd have rolled my eyes at the suggestion of looking for NB people to broaden the group.

But whatever issues there are with that approach, and I can think of a few, it isn't that they are all self-obsessed, nor is that proven by one example of someone that you know.

That pretty much comes off as "don't invite Asian women, they are all snobs, just like this person I work with who is an Asian woman and always obsessing about shoes."

People can't always read between the lines on these things.