How to deal with writing group's lack of support for my GC feminism.

[JennieLee]

I've been in a writing group for over a decade.

In my region it has a reasonably high profile and features a number of published authors. I am one of them. (Small press stuff. Nothing major.) There is supposed to be an equal balance of male and female members.

I'd noted a shift towards the terminology of gender identity politics in recent years. For example a lot of a discussion as to whether someone's character - who was very shy - could be described as asexual.

We're mainly white and most people are middle-aged or older. We had a discussion about trying to broaden/diversify members and in that context a woman (about my age, lesbian) suggested in email that we tried to recruit non-binary' members.

I sent a reply stating bluntly that I didn't believe people were non-binary. There were two sexes and those who identified as NB were self-obsessed and in the grip of a reactionary ideology. I gave the example of a friend's daughter who identifies as non-binary because she likes make-up but is studying engineering - and wants her mother to use they/them pronouns.

The person who wanted non-binary members said I was being anti-gay and ridiculous. She also mistakenly added an invitation to a young, straight, black guy - straight, middle-class academic. Being called ridiculous upset me so I asked the people in charge of running the group for a bit of support that my position was not ridiculous. This failed to arrive.

Meantime the new invitee said he couldn't possibly join the group having read my email. It wouldn't be a safe space for him. I emailed him and said that it was a pity an informal discussion had been forwarded to him. My views were personal ones, not that of the group and that I would welcome any new member and their writing, regardless of my personal views on gender identity.

He wouldn't budge - and at this point I felt the fact that no one in my group was willing to join in the discussion - I absolutely didn't expect people to agree with me but thought we should look at the issues - meant I should resign.

But somewhere it grieves me, because I felt these people were friends and would want to carry on the conversation. I also felt that as writers they would care about language, and want to weigh up ideas.

Any thoughts? Any advice? I have vaguely wondered about trying to set up an online writing group for GC women.

@JennieLee

Given that sex is binary - we are all either female or male - it is absurd to suggest we should invite writers who are neither male nor female to join us. That is the bottom line.

Well, as they are indeed either male or female, I’m not sure why it’s an issue for you in terms of the group?

In your reply you basically said I don’t believe in gender so we shouldn’t invite this person/these people.

But what merit does your belief have over the legitimacy of the suggestion of the other member?

Don’t get me wrong, I’m gender critical. But in this specific context I’m not sure you expressed what you should have effectively for the matter at hand.

I'd like to think that if I had been in your writing group, I'd have stuck up for you. You're entitled to your views and it's bloody offensive to suggest that your views are ridiculous.

I'll stop thinking non-binary is ridiculous when I hear one convincing explanation of what it actually means that doesn't rely on stereotypes (e.g. clothes, hair, hobbies and so on).

Given that sex is binary - we are all either female or male - it is absurd to suggest we should invite writers who are neither male nor female to join us.

I agree that it's absurd to think that anyone can actually be neither male nor female. But does your fellow member really think nb people are literally, physically neither one sex or the other?

Also, however daft and attention-seeking you might think a person would have to be to label themselves non-binary, how they categorise themselves surely doesn't necessarily have to have any impact on you? I mean...any prospective new members could potentially have all kinds of views, allegiances or attitudes you disagree with.

I think you do need to apologise, but that it would be reasonable to suggest something positive rather than just negatively comment on their idea. People probably weren't falling over themselves to support her idea, but you blowing it up is pushing people's hands.

I would say that you we're sorry you reacted that way, but that you really prize the 50:50 male to female ratio and you thought that could be threatened by focusing on people with gender identities. You could also say you would like to see disabled voices, carers, working class... as a priority - so a constructive rather than an aggressive response.

I’m as GC as the next adult human female but your response was rude and aggressive. You need to leave really and reflect on your approach. I know this is an emotive area but we need to control our arguments and be reasoned and kind.

I'm GC, but if I had to pick a gender (not sex), I'd probably pick non-binary, because I certainly don't like binary gender. Of course, my sex is still female.

So fussing about whether a person describes themselves as non-binary seems to me like a non-issue. It is entirely irrelevant to their biological sex. Your writing group is not segregated by sex, and there doesn't seem to be any reason why gender should matter. The group should be welcoming people from all different belief systems, whether religious beliefs or gender belief or belief that we are ruled by the lizard people (maybe not that one).

I think you've been making a silly fuss about nothing and you should apologize.

@JennieLee

Given that sex is binary - we are all either female or male - it is absurd to suggest we should invite writers who are neither male nor female to join us. That is the bottom line.

I don't understand what point you are trying to make here honestly. We know sex is binary, but I can't see what harm it does to admit people who believe otherwise to the writing group? Does the group rely on an ability to see sex exists in order to function?

I consider someone telling me they're nonbinary (or a male woman, or a female man) the same way I consider someone telling me they're a Sagittarius or a Muslim or a medium. Bit weird, not something I believe in, but as long as they're not harming anyone they can fill their boots.

There are plenty of people out there who have faith in gender ideology but don't think it should give men the right to be in women's spaces, etc. and who are perfectly lovely people just doing their thing.

I understand that this can be an emotive issue, and that if your main experience of dealing with trans people is interaction with very online TRAs it might be natural to get on the defensive immediately since they are generally truly awful. But in this situation, I think you went a bit too far.

If it were me, I would probably have explained that I don't believe in gender ideology and would not use "preferred pronouns", but would be fine with anyone being in the group as long as they were able to respect my belief. The same way I would welcome a Muslim member but would not start wearing a hijab in accordance with their beliefs.

I'm surprised you're even welcome in the group anymore. The people may have been your friends, but for understandable reasons, I highly doubt they wish to continue your relationship.

It seems from the way you stated you communicated, that you weren't open to weighing up ideas either.

It's abundantly clear that gender identity is a real and important thing for many people, so why generalise that they are all reactionary and self-obsessed?

I don't think we need to be kind. That implies telling white lies to protect others' feelings and that's what's got us into this mess. Best to be rational and reasonable and it's clear that the OP isn't cut out for this. Sad really: one might have hoped that a writer would be more nuanced in thought and speech.

Moral of the story: if you want to continue to be part of a group that you've valued for ten years, take a softly-softly approach and always in the knowledge that it may be necessary to end your association.

You’ve not Been Kind OP and said what you think without making sure it was not presented as obsequiusly as possible - don’t you know that vagina people aren’t allowed to do that? Thank goodness a penis person was there to pull you up on it.

I would query how questioning the notion of non-binary can be anti-gay - given that the entire notion of non-binary is based on the premise that same sex attraction is transphobic - and I would then depart the group and not look back.

@Fariha31

Wrtiting groups should have no truck with censorship.

Absolutely right. Nor should a group be designated a 'GC' group or a 'non -binary' group or a 'vegan' or a 'Lib Dem' group. The concept of limiting membership like that is ludicrous. Your function is to improve the writing style on the table, share what you know of the craft of writing and leave other people's ideas alone. Is this the first skirmish in the group? It will blow over if you let it. Don't brood on it. You might even share a laugh about the young man who doesn't feel safe.

You might even share a laugh about the young man who doesn't feel safe.

It all sounds a bit Vicar of Dibley church committee meeting where they discuss getting in one of they modern non binaries to have a look at. A curiosity for the middle classes.

The whole bunfight is over a fictional character!

@Eucalyptustrees

You might even share a laugh about the young man who doesn't feel safe.

It all sounds a bit Vicar of Dibley church committee meeting where they discuss getting in one of they modern non binaries to have a look at. A curiosity for the middle classes.

The whole bunfight is over a fictional character!

I left a group because of the non-stop performative wokeness and am in a GC-friendly/pro-free speech one now. Don't waste a second more of your talent with these intellectual dullards.

Yeah, our hobby groups don't usually demand unity of belief about much of anything. Sometimes there is a need to decide on a policy, like whether you will have a mixed sex sports team or not - but even then it's often best to avoid pushing beyond what is necessary to make the decision. And such discussions can be fraught even when necessary.

The comment about the "safe space" by the guy that was invited seems kind of lame too, for the same reason - why expect a writers group will be full of people who think like you, or be "safe" at all. But, maybe he just thought it seemed like it might be argumentative and that's not how he wants to spend his time.

Getting along in groups like this is like getting along at work. You have to have a certain amount of self-discipline around issues that people may differ on. It's not about "Be nice." It's about respecting that there is a time and place for arguing about real differences of opinion, and recognizing that others who think differently may still be worthwhile and have other things in common, like a career path or hobby, and that we might even enjoy spending time with them.

You’ve not Been Kind OP

I'm all in favour of not being at all kind to people advocating erasing the word woman, encroaching on female-only spaces, eroding safeguarding etc etc. But this really doesn't sound like that kind of situation at all.

Jesus - they sound like a pathetic lot. Dump them and find some grown ups.

Maybe you might become a bit more open minded to the way others live their lives. Scary thought eh

As well may they? Rather than saying ‘oooh we are super scared! We don’t feel safe! Be kind (or we will get you)’.

Given that sex is binary - we are all either female or male - it is absurd to suggest we should invite writers who are neither male nor female to join us. That is the bottom line

You might think it's absurd, but that doesn't mean they don't have a right to expand their group to attract people who identify as non-binary. It's not your group. It's their group (as far as I'm aware) and they can invite whoever they like.

Most of us share your scepticism, but I think you went too far here. I could understand your reaction if your group was women only, and they wanted to open it up to everyone, but as far as I'm aware that's not the case here. Your response was unnecessary and heavy-handed (although I think that 'unsafe' comment by the man was total, utter nonsense).

I felt these people were friends and would want to carry on the conversation

Just because people are friends with you, doesn't mean they are obliged to share all of your opinions or that they owe you support that goes against their own beliefs or conduct. Your friends should not feel like they have to support you no matter what.

Being called ridiculous upset me

Well if you go around saying ridiculous things you will be called ridiculous. If it upsets you then don't say ridiculous things.

Have you ever considered that it coudl actually help someone like you to actually talk to a person who identifies as non-binary?

Well if you go around saying ridiculous things you will be called ridiculous. If it upsets you then don't say ridiculous things

What bit was ridiculous?