Do you ever wonder if you're disappearing down a rabbit hole on trans issues?

[MaMaLa321]

For the 1st time, I had a heated discussion with a good friend on this. They firmly believe that my concerns are a marginal issue, compared to misogyny in general, poverty, the climate etc. and that it doesn't matter that politicians are so hopeless at discussing it.
TBH it took me aback - maybe I'm going dotty, but then I think that it really is important. Does anyone else feel this way?

It fundamentally embeds mysogeny

You can't get rid of mysogeny if being a woman means something about personality , skills, brain rather than just biology

Sometimes- I still think many people aren’t really aware of what’s going on.

But when you find out women are being raped in women’s prisons and on single sex wards in hospitals in the UK I don’t understand how it’s possible to be anything else but FURIOUS.

Well if they believe that the erasure of women as a sex class, and the total removal of women’s rights to single sex sports, refuges, prisons, changing rooms, shortlists, toilets and hospital wards are “marginal issues”, they are probably too stupid to bother arguing with, OP.

I might, if I didn’t see it being taught to children.

and children risking having life long medical intervention because of it.

I ask myself a similar question.

I suppose, for me, the number one issue is and always will be the environment. Our moral responsibility to the planet and all the species on it trumps everything, not least as there is little point worrying about any other matters when we could all end up dead due to global warming directly, or the wars over water and food that it will cause.

Beneath that issue, what is most important? Surely it is that all humans have access to basic human rights and a half-decent standard of living (UK 2021 this surely means a clean home, heating, internet, mobile phone, healthy food).

In terms of basic human rights then that is to a large extent protecting underprivileged groups from harm from others. GC feminism is there for the benefit of all gay people and all women, so it is fighting for a pretty damn large group. Not only that it is fighting for the rights of heterosexual men too (albeit those rights are not currently under threat, but could become so).

So yeah, Other than the environment and ensuring everyone has the basics then this issue is right up there, because it has nothing to do with a tiny minority of self-declared trans people, it is about the rights of everyone with a sexual orientation, not least women and gay men.

I have wondered if I'm worrying too much about it, then then like yesterday I walk up to a loo and find it designated as a 'family' toilet! Yep one room for all users, with five stalls (not floor to ceiling) and shared sinks. They had a little sticker with a man woman and kid on the door so that's okay then.

And yeah, I have managed to write a reply without mentioning that it seems to be the biggest current issue in child protection as well - astonishing that a movement should seek to do medical experiments on kids and open up children's safe spaces to potential predators... and yet the whole movement is so disturbing that one can talk about it without remembering to mention the children-related issues thrown up.

I'm pretty sure most people don't know what's going on. I think those who do know what's going on and ignore it have no imagination as to the outcome.... :(

If you empty out the meaning of the words 'woman', 'girl', 'female' and 'sex' (as this ideology does) reifying an idea in a man's head rather than material reality, I find it literally becomes impossible to discuss "misogyny in general, poverty, the climate," safeguarding etc in any kind of meaningful way.

If women aren't a coherent class, legally, politically, even scientifically, then how can misogyny even be defined, let alone tackled?

Yes, but I'm only following the institutions.

No. I am concerned with women's rights issues, accuracy of data, scientific method and evidence based medecine, language accuracy, freedom of speech, thought and belief, honesty, political integrity and accountability.

So called 'trans issues' are really only a symptom of far larger societal problems.

I feel sad because I know my best friend and I just don't see eye-to-eye over this issue and I have lost so much respect for her. I feel as if she is so brainwashed and so fucking stupid when she talks about this issue and I want to shake the brains back into her head. Especially when she complains about Republicans not believing in science. I'm thinking, you're the one who thinks ladies sprout penises, my dear.

Have you heard the parable of the blind men and the elephant? You can see the elephant in the room. Your friend can only see a small part of the picture.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blind_men_and_an_elephant

A recent survey by the American College Health Association showed that, in 2008, one in 2,000 female undergraduates identified as transgender. By 2021, that figure had jumped to one in 20.
bariweiss.substack.com/p/top-trans-doctors-blow-the-whistle
Does your friend think it's marginal that 5 percent of females are apparently born in the wrong body and in need of drugs and surgery to fix it.
Somehow we seem to be producing 1 in 20 babies in the wrong body, isn't that a bit odd?

I think you probably know a lot more about it that's the problem. Once you see it, you can't unsee it unfortunately.

Also last Christmas I had a very heated debate with a friend about this and recently she has come round to my way of thinking. It was the way JKRowling was treated that did it.

The scale of it is enormous when you think of all the aspects of life and employment that are affected by sex. And even then it wouldn’t be that bad except we’re shaming and silencing people that raise issues (it’s no big deal but we can’t talk about it?!). And even then it wouldn’t be that bad but you realise you can’t avoid it - you have nowhere else to go if this does crop up in your life. And even then it wouldn’t be that bad but you realise it’s being written into reality- we’re teaching it to children, redefining words, fudging statistics etc. The stuff coming out of America about medical schools moving away from sex based language is madness.

Something that came up in the recent webcast with the Baroness was that we have a whole Diversity and Equality industry, a well constructed LGB network, a framework of equality legislation, robust NHS policies on ethics around treatment and procedures, a free press etc - And yet these huge guard dogs have just rolled over for an old biscuit.

Oh God all the bloody time.

I know that transphobia exists, plaited in with homophobia and misogyny but a bit different. That poor transwoman who was brutally stabbed in Birmingham by a man who had booked her as a prostitute - horrible. And I agree that the high profile of this issue contributed to that crime.

I would never have felt that how people choose to live their own lives would ever be my business. Except: prisons, children, statistics, sport and the definitions of 'woman' and 'sex' in law. It is true madness that these issues have ever got so far from reality.

maybe I'm going dotty, but then I think that it really is important. Does anyone else feel this way?

I check my thinking on this all the time. I read the counter arguments. I may still, very reluctantly, vote labour. For me it's important for two reasons:

1. If self ID becomes law and practice it will have huge effects on my kids lives. It may not be be immediate but it's certainly important. I'm sick of having to vote for the least bad option.

1. I don't see how any politician who doesn't want to address this issue can be trusted with any of the others.

My last meet up with my oldest friend got very heated. She agrees with me on every individual point eg prisons and sport, (wasn't aware it was happening until I told her about it) but is still clinging on to 'be kind'. She's a teacher at a boarding school who has a lot of trans kids in her classes and says I simply don't understand that they are gentle kids who need help. She doesn't understand what that 'help' entails these days. It became apparent that she doesn't really get the difference between sex and gender. Nor does she have any understanding of TRAs. The kicker came when she told me nobody on my 'side' is willing to have a respectful debate and a lot of people rightly think JKR is transphobic. She then sent me a very patronising message to say that while she thinks my views are 'very concerning' she would like to know more and could I recommend something to read. Sent her a copy of 'Trans' and I haven't heard back. On the verge of ending a 30 year friendship. She's literally the only person I know in real life who can't see the problems.

I've had a tough few weeks where this all feels impossible and it's starting to affect my mental health. There are a few glimmers of hope on the horizon, but it's madness that things have got this far. I struggle to see a way out sometimes. Once you know, you can't be anything other than furious about it. I'm at the point I'm ready to start lobbing bricks through the windows of parliament.

I've told my friends if I ever get murdered, I don't want a vigil I want a fucking riot.

A lot of people think it's just a couple of sweet old transsexual males who have had genital surgery - not the violent "KILL TERFS" mob with their anime avatars and intact penises.

Most people are unaware of the complexity and deep-seatedness of the issue, which is why they think us GC feminists are harping on or barking up the wrong tree. It's only when stuff goes public, like the Lancet's "bodies with vaginas" that they become outraged, by which point it's too late; the things we warned about have slipped through without majority public resistance.

I find it difficult to discuss this with someone who says 'does this directly effect you?' And it doesn't. But then, lots of things don't directly effect me which are pretty damn important.

Not caring about major issues because they don’t directly affect you personally, is the very definition of “I’m all right, Jack.”
Totally selfish.