Is there any proof/statistics that back up the claim that trans people are the most marginalised and abused communities?

[Keke94LND]

Kier Starmer said that trans people are the most marginalised and abused communities, are there any reports or stats that back this claim up? Not that it is a competition for who is the most oppressed in society but In my opinion, I think there would be a strong argument for women being the most oppressed and abused group in history if you think historically and globally, women have been mistreated since the dawn of time right up until modern day in every country on earth, then ofcourse ethnic minorities are very marginalised in many countries to this day, as are disabled.. I just haven't been able to find anything that supports the claim that trans people are the most marginalised and abused? Is this actually true?

In a word - no.

No. Murders and crimes are quite high in some places, like the US. That applies to trans people in the US. A trans person wrote this www.queermajority.com/currents/tdor-trans-death-and-trans-life

I have been wondering about this @Keke94LND, be very interested in the responses. Also if the number of incidents includes objecting to stickers and similar...glad you asked the question OP

No there aren't. And the whole 'most marginalised' shtick being parroted over and over again is getting a bit tedious now tbh.

Trans people do face abuse and discrimination in public life, there are issues that the trans community face. They face violence from men who are terrified of any male who doesn't conform to their narrow view of masculinity.

However, there are also many examples of where they are definitely not 'marginalised' for example Tara Wolff physically assaulting Maria Mclachlan at speakers corner and then Maria being made to refer to her attacker as 'she', Karen White going into a female prison as a convicted rapist and then sexually assaulting female prisoners, Tyler Porter taking selfies with his erect penis out in a women's shelter, Jess Bradley campaigning for transwomen to be allowed in female spaces and then being caught flashing his penis all over town including at his place of work....I could go on here.

So a man who is white and who transitioned in middle age is more marginalized than a black british woman or a black American woman? Or an Indian British woman or native indigenous Canadian woman?

These are just some examples… but is this what they are saying? Because they are wrong.

😂😂😂😂😂😂

Also Hubbard.. our trans friend from the Olympics won sportswoman of the year. Being marginalized works great only if you were born with a penis!

No

They love trotting out “we are the most marginalized group” nonsense when it’s a bunch of white, western men, many of whom are middle aged and lived most of their life as men who are now claiming this.

Pray tell me how a white western male is marginalized at all? Where? According to what? Not when you are from a wealthy nation, not when your nation has a social healthcare system, not when you are a man and have lived most of your life as such.

White western men are not marginalized at all! And if you choose to dress and live as a woman that does not make you a marginalized woman.

Even a young man who transitions who has come from a wealthy western country (let’s be honest that’s who is driving this), they have not experienced any sort of marginalization in their country. Having your feelings hurt because everyone won’t pander to you is not being marginalized.

If you were to take the whole trans umbrella cohort, 300,000-500,000 in the UK, and worked out the socio-economic status of your "average trans person" my guess is you'd be looking at someone solidly in the middle class reasonably well provided for materially.

You will probably need to state the country that you mean.

The Break it down for me thread is a useful resource on MN.

This is helpful for the UK: gcritical.org/introduction/

No.

It’s not true. Women are the most oppressed group in the world - whatever background, race or class you care to choose. They always come off worse than men. And that’s because of their biology. It makes me so angry when they play the ‘trans people are the most oppressed’ card.

If you can “identify” out of your sex, then why couldn’t the young girls kidnapped by Boko Haram just claim to be men and evade capture? Why couldn’t any woman who’s raped or assaulted simply say she’s a man, and the rapist will leave her alone? Because biological sex is real and has huge implications.

Denying the reality of sex, and the unique rights needed to protect women, is IMO a western-imperialist idea that completely negates the reality of women’s much harder lives all around the world, but particularly in the global south. Women are brutalised, not because of how they “identify” but because of their biological reality.

Trans ideology is not only nonsensical, but it’s patronising and the ultimate expression of western imperialism IMO.

[quote EmbarrassingAdmissions]You will probably need to state the country that you mean.

The Break it down for me thread is a useful resource on MN.

This is helpful for the UK: gcritical.org/introduction/[/quote]
Well as the leader of a uk political party I assume he is referring to trans people in the UK, but even globally, I'm sure trans people in other countries have it worse than trans people in the uk, but I don't doubt that women have it worse (again it's not the oppression olympics, I just think you can't just say stuff for the sake of saying it without any evidence)

Nice fact-check here from Channel 4.

www.channel4.com/news/factcheck/factcheck-how-many-trans-people-murdered-uk

Worldwide, and throughout history, it seem pretty clear that women are the most marginalised and abused community.

That is common throughout almost all cultures and times.

Now, that's less the case in the UK in recent decades, but just looking at the state of this debate, the old dynamics are back in play.

Generally, when controlled for other stats, trans people do have particular issues - mental health being the most notable. And I'm sure there is discrimination for being gender non-conforming. But I don't think there's any particular thing you could pick them out as "most" on.

There's no evidence of them being disproportionate victims of crime. Transwomen are victims of violent crime at a higher rate than women, it would appear. But a lower rate than men, so it's somewhere in-between men and women. A man seems to be statistically safer if transitioned (although it's unknown what the causality is).

The most outlandish stats like "35-year life expectancy" are fabrications. That particular one is the average age of transwomen murder victims in South America. But the average age of ALL murder victims is something like 35. And it's not average life expectancy.

Trans Day of Remembrance is particularly daft. Most years there are no trans murder victims in England. I don't believe there has been a single in Scotland since devolution, yet they still think TDoR is really important.

Rose of Dawn (transwoman) tears TDoR apart in these two videos:

Depends what you mean by marginalised. Being murdered on a weekly basis, suffering economic depravation, having no voice in media or politics. Nope. Poor old Marjory in accounts misgendering or using the wrong pronouns for the late transitioning "woman" whom she has known as a man for the last 20 years? If that's your idea of marginalisation, then yes it will happen a lot. Manufactured aggression/hate/marginalisation is at the core of the TRA movement.

I think it's important to bear in mind that 'transpeople' are not one thing.

Sue Pascoe, former Master of Foxhounds, Chartered Accountant and now LGBT advisor to Channel 4 is not marginalised. Neither is cake-and-eat-it Pips Bunce, or India Willoughby or extreme porn advocate and media regular Jane Fae.

However, I'd argue the young females with fragile mental health and self-harm scars that pre-date their double mastectomy scars are pretty marginalised. They don't have the ear of the government or the media, and they certainly don't have the ear of people like the above who would claim to be their 'community'.

A lot of statistics about it are from black sex workers in South America. And yes, being a black trans sex worker in Brazil is dangerous and terrible. Even then; addicted, trafficked, underage hill tribe female sex workers in Thailand? Or mine slaves in Africa? Or girls forced into FGM and then forced underage marriages? Or the poor female judges in Afghanistan right now?

It doesn't make sense to rank oppression like Top Trumps.

(Tldr: yes, women are more marginalised, and can't identify out of it.)

The trans murder rate is particularly high in places like Brazil, from what I've read. But that's due to a lot of issues: high murder rates generally, attitudes towards homosexuality and prostitution, drug abuse etc.

Most of the transwomen I've encountered are white, middle class and home-owners, though I'm not sure how many went through to HE. One or two have been wealthy professionals. One was in the army. Those are the older ones. The younger ones are very middle class: students and young graduates/ professionals, nicely spoken and literate.

The transmen I've encountered are different. Fewer of them and they tended to be butch lesbians, much more working class and sadly too often from family backgrounds that included abuse.

How marginalised can transgender people be when they are publicly represented by people in positions of influence and power (people like Pip Bunce, Martine Rothblatt, Rachel Levine [US assistant secretary for Health]) Many more, but I have a poor memory for names.

There are transgender people visible in the police, the army, in medicine in this country and abroad. They are much more visible and much more powerful than, say lesbians and gay men, who had to fly under the radar for years. For years unmarried men and women who wanted to stand as political candidates were advised to marry in case people thought they were gay or lesbian. We now have transgender candidates like Sarah Brown, Heather Peto, Lily Madigan et al.

It's a real kick in the guts for us older gay and lesbian people to keep hearing how marginalised and powerless trans people are. Many of us spent the first half of our adult lives as literally second-class people: with fewer actual rights than everyone else. Sorry, don't mean to moan — but perspective does put a bit of a spin on it.

No they are not, it's insulting really and not sure why it's accepted as fact in some circles.

@Shedbuilder

The trans murder rate is particularly high in places like Brazil, from what I've read. But that's due to a lot of issues: high murder rates generally, attitudes towards homosexuality and prostitution, drug abuse etc.

Most of the transwomen I've encountered are white, middle class and home-owners, though I'm not sure how many went through to HE. One or two have been wealthy professionals. One was in the army. Those are the older ones. The younger ones are very middle class: students and young graduates/ professionals, nicely spoken and literate.

The transmen I've encountered are different. Fewer of them and they tended to be butch lesbians, much more working class and sadly too often from family backgrounds that included abuse.

How marginalised can transgender people be when they are publicly represented by people in positions of influence and power (people like Pip Bunce, Martine Rothblatt, Rachel Levine [US assistant secretary for Health]) Many more, but I have a poor memory for names.

There are transgender people visible in the police, the army, in medicine in this country and abroad. They are much more visible and much more powerful than, say lesbians and gay men, who had to fly under the radar for years. For years unmarried men and women who wanted to stand as political candidates were advised to marry in case people thought they were gay or lesbian. We now have transgender candidates like Sarah Brown, Heather Peto, Lily Madigan et al.

It's a real kick in the guts for us older gay and lesbian people to keep hearing how marginalised and powerless trans people are. Many of us spent the first half of our adult lives as literally second-class people: with fewer actual rights than everyone else. Sorry, don't mean to moan — but perspective does put a bit of a spin on it.

Yeah you're right, sorry I forgot to add gay and lesbian people when I mentioned other marginalised groups.. gay and lesbian people are still marginalised in many many places across the world, where it is even illegal in some countries! (As you obviously know but I felt bad that I had missed it off what I said!'

It’s also very difficult to get accurate information as research generally looks at LGBTQ as a whole. So for example articles about hate crime will talk about the rise of transphobic & homophobic attacks but only cite homophobic attacks www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2021/aug/29/spate-of-attacks-across-uk-sparks-fear-among-lgbtq-community

Plus we know from the trans widows thread that wives refusing to go along with new names/pronouns/presentation is described as violent & abusive

It is all part of the problem of lumping in the T with the LGB

Whoops — but of course I agree that in terms of numbers women are the most marginalised, abused and oppressed group in history and today. How can our leaders wring their hands over the fate of women in Afghanistan and support the erasure of the word woman itself over here?

No need to apologise, my fault for building up such a head of steam I forgot to add that.

Ok. A man who self identified as a woman 50% of the time, won Business Woman of the Year. Even though, by his own admission, he is only 'being a woman' 50% of the time, he beat all the other business women who are women 100% of the time.

And a weightlifter who fails to register a lift at the Olympics wins the Sportswoman of the year award.

Transwoman who says “The hardest part about being a woman is figuring out what to wear” wins Woman of the Year award

Marginalised? Really?

Statistically, in the UK, a trans person is more like to commit murder than be murdered. That data of course gets skewed by hitherto male offenders suddenly identifying as female after conviction for whatever reason.

But it's quite evident that the number of murdered transmen and transwomen is lower than that for either men or women when looked at as a percentage of each group as represented in the population. I.e. men are likeliest to be murdered, followed by women, followed by trans people. That data of course gets skewed by groups like Stonewall spreading the trans net very widely and counting lots of people who perhaps don't identify as trans, like occasional cross-dressers or people with DSD. Whatever the reason for the massively inclusive count, it shows up as suggesting it's very safe to be trans, which I doubt.

Bottom line, I understand the trans people murdered in the UK over the last few years could be counted on the fingers of one severely mutilated hand. I think it's around 2 in total. Not around 2 every week, like women, just 2.

And let's never lose track of the overwhelming fact that whoever you are, if you get murdered, it's nearly always a man who did it. 95% plus of murders are carried out by men. Our society's biggest unsolved problem is male violence and it impacts men, women, trans people and of course children too.

Whenever any group feels victimised or tempted to play oppression top trumps, let's remember we all face the same problem.