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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Is anyone else struggling with the obvious unfairness of this issue

137 replies

Fariha31 · 06/10/2021 08:29

I am begining to find the obvious unfairness of how woman are being treated, combined with the seemingly universality of the voices going along with it, is begining to affect my mental health?
I dont know if its triggering things from my past or if its just the insanity of this moment but I am wondering how other people are copping with all this?

OP posts:
Fariha31 · 06/10/2021 11:18

@ArtemesiaK

I have this deep anxiety at the moment that even the Conservatives will come down in favour of self ID. Then, even if I spoilt my ballot, it would be impossible for anyone to be elected that wasn't in favour of destroying women's rights.... I feel despair that our concerns aren't being taken seriously, even as politicians rail against violence against women and girls.... So no, OP, you're definitely not alone...
Me too. It terriffies me. Sad
OP posts:
SpindleWhirl · 06/10/2021 11:19

You're definitely not alone, and it is a really deep injustice, made worse by the fact that society's attitude is basically misogyny-is-definitely-a-thing-in-the-West-and-really-bad-but-oh-not-that-bad-stop-making-a-fuss-you're-being-horrible-to-men-and-misogyny-isn't-really-a-thing-anymore-in-the-West.

I think that's what's messing with my head, @PetriDisher.

@Babdoc, you're a medical doctor aren't you, I dimly recall? From a psychological perspective, are the many young women involved in this blinkered movement of moral superiority trying in some way to cope with the horrors of misogyny through their 'faith'?

Much as I despair of them and their pretty aggressive tactics against other women, they do seem quite damaged and unhappy.

NonnyMouse1337 · 06/10/2021 11:20

I find it very upsetting as well to realise how little women and their needs are valued. The sheer speed with which our rights are being ignored or rolled back is so disconcerting. I will never be able to look at things the same way again.

milkytwilightt · 06/10/2021 11:22

It’s causing me such anxiety. Especially as I have a daughter and I fear so much for her future. Yesterday I was looking at hormone free contraception and on the NHS website for the coil they refer to women as ‘people with wombs’. However for the vasectomy they refer to men as men. I just don’t understand it. If we want to reduce people to their anatomy then surely it should apply to everyone and not just women

Teaandcakeordeath83 · 06/10/2021 11:24

I feel the same Op. I have two young daughters and I'm absolutely terrified and furious in equal measure at what is happening and how this regressive and misogyny fuelled shift will impact them. I alternate between thinking "fight" and then utter despair that all is lost as this is just too big a beast to shove back in a box. I'm a scientist, a massive "lefty" and an atheist and I've seen all of those categories that I previously identified with falling to gender ideology. I feel politically and socially homeless. It doesn't feel like a good time to be a woman or raising young girls.

RoyalCorgi · 06/10/2021 11:24

I am angry more or less all the time.

There are two elements to this. One is that it feels as if everyone in a position of authority - politicians, judges, lawyers, academics, doctors - has decided to believe something quite obviously false. That the world is flat, for example. And they have all implemented flat earth policies throughout schools, hospitals, the legal system, the rest of society. And has punished anyone who dares say "Er, the earth isn't flat?"

The other element is as if they have all decided to advocate for something society had always previously agreed was immoral, like sex with children or FGM. Now sex with children is fine, apparently, and anyone who says otherwise is a wicked person who wants to deny children basic human rights.

In fact, I don't even think my examples do justice to the horror of it. This is an ideology that is all about mutilating children's bodies and turning them adults who are sterile and have no sexual function. Who could possibly think that was a good idea?

Loads of people, it turns out.

Franca123 · 06/10/2021 11:34

I feel lost as to how to bring up a daughter in this environment. How do I ensure she is proud to be a woman and that she doesn't take any crap from anyone. Sport has always been an important part of my life. Will single sex hockey teams exist by the time my daughter is old enough to want to play? Will she be forced to change in front of male pupils and teachers? I honestly could cry thinking about it. My partner isn't keen on a single sex school but surely this is the safest option? Or maybe not? Can gender critical women set up schools so we can ensure our daughters are afforded the respect they deserve whilst receiving their education.

oldwomanwhoruns · 06/10/2021 11:55

Yup @RoyalCorgi. Angry. ALL the time.
Fight back, OP.
You need to join up with women locally - they are there, you just need to find them. Start posting on on FB, little stuff to start with.
Perhaps start up a 'feminist book group'? No-one can cancel you for that, can they? Find other women who are on our side. Try joining existing groups? Get into action.

I keep thinking that this is JUST like the beginning of the Handmaid's Tale. First the women loose their jobs. Then their bank accounts are mysteriously cancelled. Then...

TimeToDateAgain · 06/10/2021 12:14

One is that it feels as if everyone in a position of authority - politicians, judges, lawyers, academics, doctors - has decided to believe something quite obviously false.

According to Timothy Snyder ( On Tyranny ) aren't they the first professions to realise what's happening, go along with it to preserve their jobs, and then wring their hands that it's all gone so far?

OvaHere · 06/10/2021 12:15

There are lots of cultural parallels in history to what is happening currently and they all eventually end.

What I find depressing though is that they never seem to end because the obvious harms become frequent and undeniable.

They tend to run their course because of other cultural shifts or incidental things and it's only years later that historians look back and go "yeah that was all pretty bad, what were people thinking".

This is a good article for anyone not familiar with Lysenkoism - an anti science ideology that permeated decades of the early 20th century and caused millions of deaths.

www.theatlantic.com/science/archive/2017/12/trofim-lysenko-soviet-union-russia/548786/

oldwomanwhoruns · 06/10/2021 12:40

Wow, an interesting read, @OvaHere. Lysenkoism is new to me. I've read 'Wild Swans', so I know about the China famines, all caused by an insistence on applying a fanatical political belief to life. But putting an uneducated pheasant in charge of the whole agriculture of the USSR... madness.

Of course, they would never put fanatics in charge of, say, a big NHS institution carrying out experiments on children, in the UK, in 2021, now would they? Never going to happen. Never...

Artichokeleaves · 06/10/2021 13:19

Same, OP

There has never in my lifetime been a worse time to be female.
There has never in my lifetime been a worse time to be gay (and I was around during section 28- at least at that point there were LGB places to go where you were safe, allowed to not want straight sex and hadn't been colonised by conversion therapy beliefs, and anyone suggesting lesbians be raped, kerbstomped or died in a grease fire would have been thought of as a nutter no one wanted anything to do with)

There has never in my lifetime been a worse time to female and gay

It's very, very depressing. It makes me extremely angry. It is affecting my mental health.

But I daren't stop, because I will not look girls in the face and tell them, the 90s were as good as it ever got for women and girls, I was there and I've let you live in a world where being born female means you are less human, with less rights, where your main purpose in life is not to be yourself or have your own boundaries but is about providing male people with what they feel they need. Where male people use you to meet their needs. Where if you are vulnerable and in trouble, male people will be in the rape shelters and prisons, making it harder for you, and not caring because you being there works for them.

I have a responsibility to not quit and not shut up and one of the plus sides to this is that more and more women are starting to wake up and get fed up.

We're 52% of the electorate. Until they come for our vote (give them time) we've got a say.

LangClegFlavoredBananaMush · 06/10/2021 13:38

Yes, I get the same sinking feeling I remember from my school days as it was dawning on me that being female meant being considered a second class human and getting creeped on by males with no recourse. At least then I felt optimistic that our future was bound to improve, since I could compare my time with earlier times. But now, seeing this new wave of misogyny, twisting the gains that our elders made against women to suit men, with the support of so many women to boot, I do feel very distressed at times. We have to keep going...

Signalbox · 06/10/2021 13:38

when I read the Telegraph article about the NHS single sex wards and that they are more worried about denying the "rights" of a predatory male than they are about the safety of women on the ward where he ends up it just blew my mind. Even though I already know this is what they are doing I still can't quite believe that they are doing it. Those poor women that are being sexually assaulted and then the statements that are released talking about doing "risk assessments" striking an appropriate balance”. I mean ffs who is risk assessing these abusers and thinking it's appropriate for them to be around vulnerable women?

It is really depressing.

Toseland · 06/10/2021 13:44

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TimeToDateAgain · 06/10/2021 13:45

We're 52% of the electorate. Until they come for our vote (give them time) we've got a say.

The victim-blaming and depth of internalised misogyny of posters on MN doesn't give me much hope at times.

I don't know how we get round it but the sheer ignorance of what is happening (courtesy of major news outlets) and its consequences feels contrived.

Waitwhat23 · 06/10/2021 13:54

What I find so bizarre is the insistence of 'sex is a spectrum'. Not even the most vociferous, vocal, insistent follower of the 'sex is a spectrum' mantra can produce one credible piece of evidence to show that sex is not immutable or that human beings can change sex. Not one.

Yet this insistence on something which has no basis in fact is being used to change laws and policies and is being taught to children in schools as literal fact and anyone who asks for the evidence of this statement is automatically branded a bigot.

It's one of the strangest things I've ever seen. It is very reminiscent of a word I am not allowed to use here but it so, so is!

Daisyxo · 06/10/2021 13:58

@Waitwhat23. You’re wrong. Sex is not being pushed as a spectrum. Sex is biological. However sex can be changed through an operation called a sex change.. What you mean is gender which is a spectrum because it is a social construct invented by humans

RoyalCorgi · 06/10/2021 13:59

@Waitwhat23

What I find so bizarre is the insistence of 'sex is a spectrum'. Not even the most vociferous, vocal, insistent follower of the 'sex is a spectrum' mantra can produce one credible piece of evidence to show that sex is not immutable or that human beings can change sex. Not one.

Yet this insistence on something which has no basis in fact is being used to change laws and policies and is being taught to children in schools as literal fact and anyone who asks for the evidence of this statement is automatically branded a bigot.

It's one of the strangest things I've ever seen. It is very reminiscent of a word I am not allowed to use here but it so, so is!

Oh indeed. And in fact if it were true that sex is a spectrum, Darwinism would be rendered meaningless. I mean, imagine that - the TRAs have proved Darwin wrong. If they were right, that would be sensational. Most of the biological scientific discoveries of the 20th century would be false.
Waitwhat23 · 06/10/2021 13:59

@milkytwilightt

It’s causing me such anxiety. Especially as I have a daughter and I fear so much for her future. Yesterday I was looking at hormone free contraception and on the NHS website for the coil they refer to women as ‘people with wombs’. However for the vasectomy they refer to men as men. I just don’t understand it. If we want to reduce people to their anatomy then surely it should apply to everyone and not just women
That's just it. Even if you take the whole 'changing language to be more inclusive' thing at face value, why is the language used to refer to men not changing? Why is it only the language used to refer to women?

It gives a good insight as to the motivations of those pushing for these changes.

TimeToDateAgain · 06/10/2021 14:01

[quote Daisyxo]@Waitwhat23. You’re wrong. Sex is not being pushed as a spectrum. Sex is biological. However sex can be changed through an operation called a sex change.. What you mean is gender which is a spectrum because it is a social construct invented by humans[/quote]
Waitwhat23 is correct that some people push 'sex as a spectrum' using DSD/VSD/congenital variations in complex pathways as human shields.

Daisyxo · 06/10/2021 14:04

@TimeToDateAgain I may be wrong but I am not sure that is what PP was referring to in their post.. they meant gender.

BabyOctopus · 06/10/2021 14:05

OP, I was going to start a thread on this myself.

At times this really does affect my mental health. Sometimes I’m so angry about how things are going and my own powerlessness that I can’t sleep.

It’s the hypocrisy that has upset me so much lately, especially certain men leaping on the poor Sarah Everard story as a way to showcase themselves as a gleaming example of feminist manhood, e.g. Owen Jones asking where are the women’s voices that need to be amplified (which led to somebody suggesting he talk to an expert on violence against women, only for the expert herself to reply that Jones had blocked her even though she’d never spoken with him. I expect she had had the temerity to air a view that put women’s needs first and foremost, and this offended Jones - how very dare she.)

The women’s sport thing lately too; really good evidence coming out to support what we all knew but were previously chastised for articulating. Nevertheless, good news that there is now up-to-date research to call upon. And yet we still have sports bodies coming out to say they will prioritise inclusion over fairness and safety to women! I think it’s utterly outrageous they can get away with this - a sporting body’s top priorities should be fairness and safety.

The other thing that is getting me down - I know two young non-gender conforming females, one in their early 20s and the other a pre-teen. They have always tended towards androgynous hair styles and clothing. Both are thoughtful, clever, creative types, who might be considered a bit ‘quirky’. The older is now on testosterone and is fundraising to have their breasts surgically removed. The youngest chops and changes pronouns and has already queried about puberty blockers. I accept in rare cases that medical transition may be the only course of action for those with severe gender dysphoria, but it’s unbelievable that in 2021 it’s seen by wider society as a good and praiseworthy thing that people are undergoing medical transition with potentially serious side-effects alongside life-altering surgery, purely on the basis of a nebulous gender identity that doesn’t ‘match’ their sex.

I am a traditional “lefty” atheist. I am able to critically examine arguments and assess evidence (in fact, I won awards for it in university).

I’ve done my very best to see it from the other side, but each time I fall back on the side of so-called ‘radical feminism’, which doesn’t seem so very radical at all to me.

The women in my family get it, but don’t often talk about it for fear of being thought intolerant. The men in my family agree with my viewpoint, but believe it’s not a priority right now. All except for my father, a GP who has cared for and supported trans people, but nevertheless understands the conflict with women’s rights.

The fact the other men - who I love very much and are otherwise good people - don’t view this as an especially important issue tells you all you need to know. And that’s why I’m depressed about it.

Waitwhat23 · 06/10/2021 14:07

@Daisyxo we have seen many, many posters insist that sex is a spectrum. We have seen dodgy YouTube videos given as 'evidence' that this is so. Sex and gender is being deliberately conflated by organisations such as Stonewall.

Sex is immutable and binary. It is unchanging.

Gender is a social construct and is indeed on a spectrum.

There is no such thing as a 'sex change' operation. There are certainly some cosmetic changes which can be made (breast implants for example) but no operation can make someone 'change sex'.

TimeToDateAgain · 06/10/2021 14:08

[quote Daisyxo]@TimeToDateAgain I may be wrong but I am not sure that is what PP was referring to in their post.. they meant gender.[/quote]
This is feeling rather Life of Brian - we'll need WaitWhat23 to resolve it. Grin

Either way, there are many threads on FWR where 'sex is a spectrum' is introduced by some posters. Putting that phrase into Google/whatever returns a lot of hits although it's good to see Colin Wright's piece arguing against it is on the front page of results for me.