Gender fluid confusion

[Mudday]

I've recently been told that I have to refer to an openly seriously 'gender fluid' person I'm meeting soon, as 'they or them'. I find this incredibly difficult simply because it confuses the hell out of my love of language, the myriad psychological implications of 'objective plural', and respect for an individual human being. Not to mention the fact that all of us, regardless of sex, are to an extent a gender fluid mix of male and female seeing as our flaming parents/creators were. I am also confused by the fact that people like JK Rowling are getting terrible hassle for defending female apparently 'binary-restricted' identity. What is going on? Everyone has the right to own their own identity, but never at the expense of another's.

What is the meeting?

Work related?
Something else?

The context is important.

Fwiw it's been the norm in my industry to use them/ they frequently when sex is not known. Or indicating would be not ideal. Esp in presentations.

I mean even in general.

Who is doing that?
(Person you don't know with name you can't guess sex).
Oh great can you let them know I need it by Monday.

Easy peasy.

I am defaulting to them a lot these days as it's just easier. And it doesn't make me go arrgh at the singular/ plural thing.

Why do you see it as disrespectful to use they/ them?

Don't you say things like. Someone from the bank called, can you call them back..?

Hmm I asked for wine not here yet.
Why not give them a wave and ask them what's happened to it?

'Not to mention the fact that all of us, regardless of sex, are to an extent a gender fluid mix of male and female seeing as our flaming parents/creators were'.

Creators?
How do you mean? Don't understand.

Gender fluid mix of male and female is conflating two different things.

In short.
Male - cock sperm
Female - ovaries cunt baby

That's the definition forever and applies to all mammals. And loads of other animals etc.

I mean. It's a total basic fundamental. This oh what if a female can't get pregnant eh????!!! I mean ignore that. It's so... Not understanding some really basic everyday concepts about well. I mean fuck biologists etc right? Yes you can ignore that.

Gender has at least 3 meanings in common use.

When it comes to transgender, gender identity refers to a feeling inside about... Well not entirely sure. Suffice to say. Lots of people don't have it. Lots of people don't get it because it's never properly defined.

So no one is a gender fluid mix of sexes.

You're overthinking.

If the meeting is important. Just bite the bullet and use they/ them. Not a big deal.

It's a small social occasion, not work related at all. I will ask 'them' why the fear of a singular word should affect their identity enough to dilute it. Generic social labels are a very different matter.

Well you don't need to go then.

It's not a meeting like you said in OP.

Best if it's friends etc. Then make excuses rather than make host etc uncomfy.

Host has told you how to address. Really terrible manners to do anything else.

Choices.

Make excuses don't go.
Go and be pleasant and don't be an arsehole.

Simple.

' I will ask 'them' why the fear of a singular word should affect their identity enough to dilute it'.

Why the fuck would you do that?

To make them feel really uncomfy?
Fuck the host off?

To make some kind of finickity linguistics point? To their face?? At a social gathering!!!

Bloody hell.

Go play nice
Don't go

Don't go and be a complete bastard to someone you have been invited along for s nice evening...

Seriously.

You will look like a nasty petty sod. And any friends of yours there will, I imagine. Not be friends any more.

I will always be kind Gerbil, and I respect that you care for the misunderstood person here. Your friends are lucky to have you. (Don't for a moment think I want to be one btw)...

If you are speaking to this person directly, you should be using the pronoun you as a form of address.

If you are speaking of this person within his or her hearing, you should be using his/her name anyway.

Fairly simple situation to avoid, just by abiding by pre-2000 etiquette. So I'd do that.

What misunderstood person?

You mean the friend of a friend who you will meet at a social thing?

Are they misunderstood? The request was use they/ them. Hardly tricky.

If you feel this freaked out/ pissed off etc about doing that little thing for a friend of a friend then please. Don't go.

You don't know them right?

They might be really funny. Interesting. Charming and fun. Great company. They could be a person who you totally click with.

You want to go and be a dick and ruin the hosts night by essentially starting on their friend?

That's genuinely awful. Why would you do that? Don't get it at all.

When it comes to this topic, for me. It's zero to do with individuals. Most people are fine even lovely. Friend of a friend you will likely get on.

For me the issues are not about individuals. People. Who I take as I find.

It's about law, risk, the language changes IE women and girls essentially being called cunts. But on the next page. Women is used to mean sex. It's about stats, prisons. So so much. Already gone. How? Cunty types are being pushed back decades. Plus, no words to refer to the billions of us on the planet as a group. Ever. Even female is nearly gone.

We are fucked.

But that's not the fault of a friend of a friend.

Go and be nice.
Make excuse.

Don't be an arse.

I get you OP!! The use of they/them for a single person always makes me do a mental double take. It's like when their/there, your/you're lose/loose are used wrongly. I have to go back and re-read the sentence, and work out what was really meant and it means I am slightly irritated at the disruption in the flow.

Although, don't worry, I do know you are not allowed to pull anyone up on their misuse of homophones beacuse it is classist or educationalist or something.

...or, I get this thought process when I I come across they/them for a single person:
'gosh, iare they are so overweight that they are the size of two people? You can't do that! You can't mention anyone's weight these days because it it's body shaming/ triggering etc,etc, etc.....'

I find 'they' for a singular person jarring but I wouldn't make an issue of it with a specific person. It would be kind of rude to challenge this socially. Just use their name?

Just don't refer to them. Problem solved.

Thanks to all you non-gerbil peeps! You make perfect sense in a crazy world. I would never make them/they/other feel awkward and look forward to them laughing at me, the permanently confused idiot who should've left middle earth a mythical millennium ago..!

OP, you are getting an unfairly hard time here.
I am both autistic and a pedant. I would be completely unable to deny reality, mangle language, and use an inappropriate pronoun.
Let me pose a philosophical question.
Suppose your friend is hosting someone who firmly identifies as Napoleon.
Would you feel forced to be complicit in validating their identity and address them as “your imperial majesty”? If not, why not, and what is the difference? Why does one compel validation to be “nice” and the other does not?
Why is their comfort more important than yours? Why is it always women who have to concede space?

Welcome to the not-so-wonderful world of gender ideology, Mudday, where anyone can say they are anything and you are considered unkind and transphobic for failing to go along with their demands for you to change your language.

Language is really important. It changes thoughts and that's what this is all about. Gender ideology is all about getting us to stop thinking that sex is important and replacing it with gender. There are thousands of different genders, no one knows what any of them actually mean and of course the majority of us have no sense of gender at all, we're just women or men and that's it.

In the case of this person I'd say the minimum to them: 'Hello' and pass on. Deprive them of the attention and specialness they seek. If you have to talk to them you can call them by their name or 'you'.

Read Trans by Helen Joyce or anything by Abigail Shriver. If you want to dive deep into the murky depths of trans ideology, this is the thread to read:

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3145470-Break-it-down-for-me

Once you've read those and know what you're talking about you will be prepared to take this issue head-on.

mudday

I think in a social setting you’ll be fine to refer to them with their name

I doubt you’d be talking about them if they aren’t in your conversation group or have popped to the loo

And to be fair if i was in your situation I’d make an effort, but if i make a mistake i make a mistake

@Beamur

I find 'they' for a singular person jarring but I wouldn't make an issue of it with a specific person. It would be kind of rude to challenge this socially. Just use their name?

Singular 'they' isn't (IME) anywhere near as jarring as using the wrong-sex pronoun. It's perfectly standard usage if the sex of the person is unknown - as in this case for everyone except the OP we don't know the sex of the 'gender fluid' person, so you've used 'their', quite possibly without even noticing. So it is actually not a grammatical leap to extend 'they/them' to a person of known sex.

I find the problem arises if people make an issue of it (either way) and say 'they' with any sort of special emphasis, be it mocking or that twinkly 'ooh, aren't I good to have remembered' .... if anyone has seen star trek discovery I'm thinking of Stammers and the doctor, they can't just refer to the youngster naturally as 'they', it's totally cringeworthy.

@Beamur

I find 'they' for a singular person jarring but I wouldn't make an issue of it with a specific person. It would be kind of rude to challenge this socially. Just use their name?

But that thing of using someone's name all the time instead of pronouns is equally jarring;

MagpiePi walked out of MagpiePi's room wearing MagpiPi's favourite t-shirt and then MagpiePi called the garage to see if MagpiePi could get an appointment to get MagpiePi's car fixed...

It is mentally exhausting!

But obviously, someone else's gender validation or non-gender validation or whatever it is they need to be feel special, is the most important thing in any situation.

@Babdoc

OP, you are getting an unfairly hard time here. I am both autistic and a pedant. I would be completely unable to deny reality, mangle language, and use an inappropriate pronoun. Let me pose a philosophical question. Suppose your friend is hosting someone who firmly identifies as Napoleon. Would you feel forced to be complicit in validating their identity and address them as “your imperial majesty”? If not, why not, and what is the difference? Why does one compel validation to be “nice” and the other does not? Why is their comfort more important than yours? Why is it always women who have to concede space?

Exactly!!

Why can't we use 'the person' or 'that person' rather than they/them if they don't want sex based pronouns?

I guess in reality you would use both. The 'problem' with they is the sense you are obligated to use it in their absence. Talking with my DD about someone we both know, who is female but uses they is hard work. So amongst ourselves we use she. But know she prefers they. But I wouldn't call her she to someone else and neither would DD as her friends are mostly very 'kind' around pronouns and she would be in trouble for not respecting their pronouns.
Maybe linguistically it will feel less odd if it becomes more widespread. Although this would also mean more acceptance of gender ideology which I don't think is a good thing.

Making other people feel comfortable is a two-way street. The 'gender fluid' person, if they are an adult, should be able to brush off any 'mistakes' made by other people, make them feel at ease, and gently explain if the other party seems interested.

Maybe the person who told you in advance that you 'have to' refer to the other person in a particular way is just being overly anxious and the 'gender fluid' person themselves would be mortified to know a fuss is being made on their behalf?

If the diktat did come from the 'gender fluid' person, they already sound like tedious company and you could be in for a very long, dull social occasion that will revolve around their 'journey' or tip-toeing around it to avoid a tantrum or sadface. Either way, the occasion would end up being all about them.

The only time I would appreciate knowing what topics or words to avoid when meeting someone for the first time, would be in the case of someone having recently miscarried or suffered the loss of a child. An adult should be robust enough to be able to deal gracefully with any other assumptions a well-intentioned acquaintance might make about them.

All of your responses are simply astonishing (in a good way). Thanks for your wisdom and understanding. Bless you all and I really hope your day to day is valued.

I find 'they' awkward and jarring. It is also often ambiguous. It's also increasingly being used to stand in for actual names. Sometimes I think it is just lazy and sloppy writing.

@PurgatoryOfPotholes

If you are speaking to this person directly, you should be using the pronoun you as a form of address.

If you are speaking of this person within his or her hearing, you should be using his/her name anyway.

Fairly simple situation to avoid, just by abiding by pre-2000 etiquette. So I'd do that.

This is the problem I have too. I can't refer to someone as she / he / they in their presence, it feels so rude.