Police officer in Couzens' unit charged with rape

[PandorasMailbox]

I wonder how many more will come to light?

I saw that and wondered if it would be mentioned here. Charged tonight for an assault that happened September last year … why a year delay in charging him? This will do nothing to reassure women that the police are there to protect us.

God. It's endless isnt it?makes yoibwonswe what next?

I was wondering that too @DrBlackbird

The Met needs a massive overhaul and much more rigorous vetting procedures for officers.

Funny that the BBC didn't mention that he was in WCs unit on the news at 10.
I wonder if he was 1 of the officers who wrote letters on his behalf to the sentencing judge and also why the fact that serving police officers were will to defend him/his actions to a judge and argue for a more Lelant Sentence isn't getting more press (haven't heard it mentioned since the sentencing)

I hadn’t heard about the letters, that’s shocking. This just gets worse and worse.

The whole thing's rotten to the core @Selkiesarereal

Wow.
As long as it doesn’t allow Boris et al to say “It was just a problem unit, the rest of the force are fine!”

The Police Service needs a root and branch overhaul of its recruitment and retention.

Another thread also started: www.mumsnet.com/Talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/4365857-2nd-Met-Police-officer-has-been-charged-with-rape

Not sure if this is speculation and deleteable. If so, fine. I wondered if this alleged crime was discovered during the WC investigation/phone/WhatsApp stuff and they couldn’t act on it until he was sentenced. The timing between sentencing and this guy being charged is very close. Possible they were operating as a ring? Or maybe victim only decided to report last week after the WC sentencing was in the press.

Oh what a shocker.

Also, well I never.

The met? Surely not.

Was he in the watsapp group couzens was in?

Incidentally news recently said over 700 officers reported by public for sexual misconduct/ various levels of sexual assault.

These are often filled. If looked into takes ages. If guilty usually reprimanded/ training/ sack. Rarely prosecuted (IE the met don't bother with the fact it was a crime).

The met are appalling. Have been for decades.

Sapphire
Warboys
Reid
Black men strangely die disproportionately during police contact
Illegal phone tapping.
Murdering and covering up
Corruption
And there is much much more

They are worse than useless. And dick needs to go. This is about the 5th major fuckup she's presided over. She was in charge of the operation when menezes was murdered and the police LIED about what he was doing to try and get away with it.

She should have gone years ago. I mean Lying about that is just.. Same with Ian Tomlinson. Murdered. They lied. Only got caught when phone footage came out.

They are abysmal, criminal, dangerous. And that's how loads of Londoners see them.

And the Stephen Port case. www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-48887754

On a practical note, regardless of whether Cressida Dick is removed, how would anyone rid the Met of bad officers?
It's early but bear with me - if they were thorough in their investigations of officers, and removed all of the "bad apples", how many are we talking? 10%? 20%? More?
And given that these officers are likely to be at all levels, how does the force continue to operate in the meantime? How quickly can those officers be replaced?
If it was a factory, where a substantial percentage of the employees were criminal, you could shutter the factory and move production elsewhere. But a police force?
I think the reason this happens, in the Met and elsewhere (because I don't believe any other force is any better) is because it's just too hard to deal with, and gets filed with all the other things that are too hard to do, ie binned.
Look at countries struggling with corruption in police forces, and how little progress they make, despite setting up task forces of supposedly uncorrupted and incorruptible staff.
It's rotten, but at what point is a force past saving? What's the tipping point?

Do we get rid of the worst 10% and rebuild? The worst 30%?

I really think they need to improve as an employer because that's key to attracting more varied staff, more women, more minorities, more parents, more older people with life experience, experience in industry, etc.

I know someone who was on track for direct-entry Inspector and he's given it up because he can do much better elsewhere, and has. I also know female officers who have been treated very badly.

It's probably a hard sell at the moment, improving conditions for police officers at a time when the police are not trusted, but without doing so there's always going to be a sizeable contingent who join for all the wrong reasons and delight in their macho martyrdom. And that's almost impossible to prevent, but if enough people were attracted to the job eventually the influence of those types of officer would be diluted.

And do we really want the person coming to our aid to have worked sixteen hours, or just had their leave cancelled, or just been on standing watch and unable to pee for hours? Who hasn't eaten for hours, who has PPE that doesn't fit, who had been assaulted numerous times?
Is any of that going to result in a reasonable, sympathetic human being, or just another broken-in cop who divides the world into "job" and "civvy"?

The whole culture needs to be totally changed.

Massive problem.

Could be done, not quickly.. But could be done if the will and resources were earmarked. Would need to be done by independent people with full backing of govt.

Not going to happen.

'because I don't believe any other force is any better'

Why do you believe that? The list of met criminality, cover up etc. Goes back decades. Massive awful stuff. Like murdering and lying about the victim to try and get away with it.

Really interested in why you believe that.

--

'I know someone who was on track for direct-entry Inspector and he's given it up because he can do much better elsewhere, and has. I also know female officers who have been treated very badly.'

It's not about pay. It's about culture. That's why those women left. That's why so many leave.

---

'sizeable contingent who join for all the wrong reasons and delight in their macho martyrdom'

Can you expand on this? The martyrdom point?
You don't think it's about power?

--

'And do we really want the person coming to our aid to have worked sixteen hours, or just had their leave cancelled, or just been on standing watch and unable to pee for hours? Who hasn't eaten for hours, who has PPE that doesn't fit, who had been assaulted numerous times?'

This could describe any number of Jobs. Eg nursing.

'Is any of that going to result in a reasonable, sympathetic human being, or just another broken-in cop who divides the world into "job" and "civvy"?'

We're taking about rape. Murder. Masses of sex offences reported and ignored. Reported by the public and by colleagues. Cover ups. Lying to the public. Corruption. Etc etc.

You don't do that because you're working in poor conditions.

You seem to be minimising the massive issues with the met.

No, I'm not minimising the issues, I'm just trying to work out how we can either cut out the rot or dilute it to change the culture.
And nurses having shit working conditions is not a good thing.
In order: there's nothing to suggest other police forces are free of this kind of toxicity and criminal behaviour, there's probably even less focus on some of the regional forces because journalists are obsessed with London. And the Met is the richest police force; if there's money for internal investigations in London there might not be elsewhere.
I wasn't talking about pay necessarily, but even with a higher rank entry, policing isn't that desirable a job. And that's for someone who had a lot of interest in the first place. Agreed re. women.
Poor working conditions add to a form of machismo - in all workplaces. Bad employers can get their staff cheering on the race to the bottom. "You get a 20 minute break! Ha! I only get 15. You're soft." etc. Plus for men it means a total disconnect from family life - you're not going to the school assembly if you're doing last minute compelled overtime or your day off has been cancelled. You aren't taking the kids to gymnastics because your shift pattern doesn't allow for any weekly commitments. So that all becomes your wife's problem, and you become more married to the job. It's one of the reasons police officers have such high divorce rates.
Next point - I don't think nurses should have shit working conditions. I'm saying that those working conditions form part of the culture and form a barrier to entry for many other people.

And the fact someone like WC lasted as long as he did in multiple police forces is because other people didn't speak up, or if they did, weren't listened to. If you know any coppers you'll know that apart from prison officers and paramedics, they're the most cynical people on earth. Once they've been dissuaded from speaking up that's it.
I'm not saying I agree with it, it's an observation. And I was trying to think of ways in which the Met could be improved long term.

Are male police officers more likely or less likely to commit rape or murder than other men? I'm assuming the same percentage but I have overlooked the fact there will be some who take the job for easier access to targets. Certainly for harassment, and then escalating to worse.

I don't think I've been very clear, I think the only way to get rid of scum is to make it easier for everyone else to point them out. I've reread my posts and that bit isn't clear - I think we should offer more support to officers who whistle-blow, and encourage a wider variety of people to be police officers in the first place.

All of our public services are highly unionised. Unions defend even the indefensible and therefore employers tend not to go down the route of disciplining. The Unions are also macho masculine, even with (very few) women in top jobs.

I think part of the problem with recruiting is that the job only really appeals to two groups of people.
A job where you are on the front line, are at risk of being stabbed, shot, beaten up etc, is not a first choice for most of us.
You need either a strong sense of public duty, a wish to protect the weak and bring offenders to justice - or you need to be on a power trip, seeking the status and position from which to abuse victims.
Sadly, the latter are a not insignificant minority. And weeding them out at interview is not easy.

FlyingOink

"Are male police officers more likely or less likely to commit rape or murder than other men? I'm assuming the same percentage but I have overlooked the fact there will be some who take the job for easier access to targets. Certainly for harassment, and then escalating to worse."

From what I have seen over the past decades, you have definitely answered your own question with regards to accessing victims. They are the law and the majority of people don't question them.
Well, until now. Now the majority of women and men are questioning them.
According to some reports there are up to a dozen other policemen being investigated with regard to the Whatsapp group.

www.express.co.uk/news/uk/1499813/met-police-news-Wayne-couzens-WhatsApp-group-chat-officer-on-duty-Sarah-Everard

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-58760933

@Cabinfever10

Funny that the BBC didn't mention that he was in WCs unit on the news at 10. I wonder if he was 1 of the officers who wrote letters on his behalf to the sentencing judge and also why the fact that serving police officers were will to defend him/his actions to a judge and argue for a more Lelant Sentence isn't getting more press (haven't heard it mentioned since the sentencing)

Bloody hell I missed that. That is revolting.

@Cabinfever10

Funny that the BBC didn't mention that he was in WCs unit on the news at 10. I wonder if he was 1 of the officers who wrote letters on his behalf to the sentencing judge and also why the fact that serving police officers were will to defend him/his actions to a judge and argue for a more Lelant Sentence isn't getting more press (haven't heard it mentioned since the sentencing)

Any officer who wrote a letter expressing any sort of support for that animal needs sacking as they are not fit to be in that position. If you can defend what he did you have already crossed the line.

The met are appalling. Have been for decades.

Sapphire
Warboys
Reid
Black men strangely die disproportionately during police contact
Illegal phone tapping.
Murdering and covering up
Corruption
And there is much much more

Met officers having long term sexual relationships (and in some cases children) with unsuspecting female activists. How these abuses don't amount to rape by deception is anyone's guess. Some of them (notably Andy Coles) still in positions of power...

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-47240670

www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2020/feb/25/met-upholds-complaint-woman-deceived-undercover-officer-andy-coles

I read a stat the other day that 15 women have been murdered since 2009 by serving or former police male officers.

So I'm really not surprised.

There will be many more cases like this coming forward.

What angers me is I wonder if it's taken Sarah's murder to get the ball rolling.

Remembering abother scandal that still hasn't gone away, you know

www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-58781265

...It's not that the priests became child abusers. The child abusers because priests as a career move.

Similarly, if there's a job where you get to frisk people and they even give you your own handcuffs, be suspicious of all recruits' motives.

@FlyingOink

And the Stephen Port case. www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-48887754

On a practical note, regardless of whether Cressida Dick is removed, how would anyone rid the Met of bad officers?
It's early but bear with me - if they were thorough in their investigations of officers, and removed all of the "bad apples", how many are we talking? 10%? 20%? More?
And given that these officers are likely to be at all levels, how does the force continue to operate in the meantime? How quickly can those officers be replaced?
If it was a factory, where a substantial percentage of the employees were criminal, you could shutter the factory and move production elsewhere. But a police force?
I think the reason this happens, in the Met and elsewhere (because I don't believe any other force is any better) is because it's just too hard to deal with, and gets filed with all the other things that are too hard to do, ie binned.
Look at countries struggling with corruption in police forces, and how little progress they make, despite setting up task forces of supposedly uncorrupted and incorruptible staff.
It's rotten, but at what point is a force past saving? What's the tipping point?

Do we get rid of the worst 10% and rebuild? The worst 30%?

I really think they need to improve as an employer because that's key to attracting more varied staff, more women, more minorities, more parents, more older people with life experience, experience in industry, etc.

I know someone who was on track for direct-entry Inspector and he's given it up because he can do much better elsewhere, and has. I also know female officers who have been treated very badly.

It's probably a hard sell at the moment, improving conditions for police officers at a time when the police are not trusted, but without doing so there's always going to be a sizeable contingent who join for all the wrong reasons and delight in their macho martyrdom. And that's almost impossible to prevent, but if enough people were attracted to the job eventually the influence of those types of officer would be diluted.

And do we really want the person coming to our aid to have worked sixteen hours, or just had their leave cancelled, or just been on standing watch and unable to pee for hours? Who hasn't eaten for hours, who has PPE that doesn't fit, who had been assaulted numerous times?
Is any of that going to result in a reasonable, sympathetic human being, or just another broken-in cop who divides the world into "job" and "civvy"?

I guess, in theory, if there is a major problem with getting an adequate police force, then the army will be dragged in.

Given it was squaddies who assaulted me, I'm not sure that solves anything