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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Evidence from countries where self-ID exists

15 replies

EdinburghFeminist · 02/10/2021 17:53

Is there a thread which documents evidence of women being at risk from men in countries where self-ID exists? I am in a conversation with a man who has been arguing for self-ID for several days now but is on the verge of tipping. He has asked for evidence that women have been placed at risk/harmed in places where self-ID is already in place. I’m sure I’ve seen something like this but can’t remember where, can anyone help? Thanks!

OP posts:
3timeslucky · 02/10/2021 18:14

Google any country with Self-ID with the words trans and women's prison. That should give you some good material to start with. I did a sample test with Ireland.

EdinburghFeminist · 02/10/2021 18:46

Brilliant, thank you all so much. I’ve added lots of examples from these to the discussion now. 🤞

OP posts:
PermanentTemporary · 02/10/2021 18:46

It does depend rather on your view of what harm could mean.

JojobaFromOctober · 02/10/2021 19:08

Just for one example, Heather Mason has been doing sterling work exposing a little of what has been going on in the Canadian prison system.

And it's also worth keeping in mind that anything we do hear about is likely to be the tip of the iceberg considering that self ID very nicely obscures statistics and data and the majority of journalists in the self ID countries don't want to find problems, aren't looking and wouldn't report if they did find something.

Nachthex · 02/10/2021 19:59

"it does depend rather on your view of what harm could mean" (@PermanentTemporary).

Absolutely this. The other side usually see harms as being rape & murder but there are many other harms done to women in the name of this ideology. Women self-excluding from sports activities, medical care, social groups - all these and others contribute to women being harmed.

EdinburghFeminist · 02/10/2021 20:16

@Nachthex

"it does depend rather on your view of what harm could mean" (*@PermanentTemporary*).

Absolutely this. The other side usually see harms as being rape & murder but there are many other harms done to women in the name of this ideology. Women self-excluding from sports activities, medical care, social groups - all these and others contribute to women being harmed.

Evidence of all of the above is welcome - I suspect he will react more to the evidence of violence but if there is evidence of everything else too I can post it and see. He hasn't replied to the 11 examples I've posted so far though!
OP posts:
thepiratequeen · 02/10/2021 20:29

Last year MSM reported on the case of a teenage girl who was about to be released and was considered a danger to women.

www.independent.ie/regionals/herald/news/garda-alert-as-homicidal-teenage-girl-is-released-39557914.html

The reality

gript.ie/photo-barbie-kardashian-irelands-homicidal-girl/

CreepingDeath · 02/10/2021 20:52

I'd just like to point out that we have Self ID in Ireland, but the media will not report properly on it. For example, male rapists in women's prisons are called by their 'preferred gender', so it's hard to know how many there actually are. See the case of Barbie Kardashian, an aggressive sexual attacker that the media reported as female.

Does he seriously not think that predatory men will take advantage of this law?
What about sports, Laurel Hubbard - does he think they should have competed against women in the Olympics? What about Fallon Fox, who did serious damage to a female opponent in MMA.

Also, even if you provide this guy with lots of evidence, he may come back with 'yeah but that's only a few' blah blah blah. Be warned that some people simply don't want to see the problems with all this. It's like banging your head against a wall.

CreepingDeath · 02/10/2021 20:53

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Ozanj · 02/10/2021 21:00

@EdinburghFeminist

Is there a thread which documents evidence of women being at risk from men in countries where self-ID exists? I am in a conversation with a man who has been arguing for self-ID for several days now but is on the verge of tipping. He has asked for evidence that women have been placed at risk/harmed in places where self-ID is already in place. I’m sure I’ve seen something like this but can’t remember where, can anyone help? Thanks!
Not quite the same but India has had some horrific cases of serial killers / pedophiles who pretended to be part of the hijra (trans) community; or dressed up as women specifically to commit their crimes. It is got so bad that now almost all female bathrooms have attendants in public / government owned spaces & hotels.

There have been cases in the Middle East and East Asia too of men dressing up as women to kidnap and rape children.

CharlieParley · 02/10/2021 21:29

There is currently lots of talk from politicians and pundits about listening to women when they complain about flashers and the need for police to take flashing seriously, so that more women feel able to report flashers.

But of course that is not possible when self-id means any man can simply claim he's naked in a women's space because he identifies as a woman. And self-id laws mean women run the risk of being prosecuted if they complain about flashers.

There was a two-year legal battle in Norway because of this. (Norway introduced a self-id law in 2016, without a public debate or informing the public what it meant.)

A woman in a sports centre went to management because in the open-plan women's showers was a man showering naked. He says he's legally female. Management assured her as an intact male he still shouldn't be there.

The next time she went, again she encounters this man. She considers whether to go back to management but decided to tell him first that while he was welcome to use the women's changing rooms, he shouldn't be showering naked with the women. They go together to management where she complained again.

He then goes to the police and files a complaint against her for harassment and discrimination. It goes to trial. She's found guilty of harassment and discrimination for objecting to the presence of a fully intact male in the open-plan women's showers.

The woman appealed the judgement and won at tribunal, with a narrow margin. The judges strongly criticised politicians for passing a badly thought out law without considering the consequences for all.

A translation of the judgement is here:
womenwhosayno.blogspot.com/2018/10/norway-woman-is-accused-of-harassment.html?m=1

(A similar case in the Netherlands however was lost by the woman complaining about a naked man. The judgement said something along the lines of times have changed, women have to get over it. Unfortunately, I can't find the reference for that one right now.)

It's also remarkable how many of these incidents there are now. The convicted serial sex offender allegedly involved in the WiSpa incident was also reportedly involved in an incident in 2018 in a swimming pool in California (which has a self-id law) and is facing criminal charges for that.

There was also another incident in the same year in California where a group of teenage girls getting changed for water polo training complained about a naked man in the open-plan showers in the women's changing room, stating he had scared them and calling him a predator. The coaches reported the incident, police investigated but concluded no crime had occurred because the person in question identified as a woman and was transitioning. From that point onwards the girls only used the changing rooms under supervision.

Whether that's one and the same person or two separate flashers, it shows that getting caught will not deter a flasher in this situation, precisely because self-id allows him to be there, and there is no longer a deterrent in law.

Lolapusht · 02/10/2021 22:59

Any instances of men reporting naked trans men in changing rooms etc? Or of men feeling threatened in previously single sexed spaces by the presence of a TM? If there’s not, then the reasons why not could surely be used to strengthen the argue against self-id eg TM don’t use these spaces in the same way as TW so it’s not transphobia it’s male violence. Why don’t we hear about TM being naked in male changing rooms etc?

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