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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

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Original poster

Help me find some arguments re women walking home at night

30 replies

Redredwiney · 02/10/2021 09:36

I have a male cousin whose views I often disagree with. He’s very old school (bordering on racist and sexist). We spend days, sometimes weeks and months debating about something but I do so because half the time he eventually starts to agree with my POV and change his way of thinking, which is why I persevere!

The current discussion is around Sarah Everard and how women should feel safe when we walk home, and that telling us to be careful is putting the onus on us rather than teaching men to not rape, grope, etc.

His response is that this is no different to men having to also be careful in case they’re mugged or come across a drunken lout who wants a fight when they’re out late. He says in an ideal world we all shouldn’t be worried but because bad people exist, we just have to be careful. He even made the point that when he used to live in a dodgy part of London, he would carry his keys in his hand just in case he needed to protect himself, just like women are accustomed to doing.

I don’t quite know how to respond to that, which is not often the case…! Can anyone help me for when we next talk about it?

OP posts:
HerBigChance · 02/10/2021 09:39

When men have to be careful, it's due to a threat from other men. So men are the threat towards both sexes.

HerBigChance · 02/10/2021 09:42

Also, the walking home in the dark thing is always deemed to be a problem when a woman has been out enjoying herself. Millions of us are walking home in the dark after work on autumn and winter evenings.

Original poster
Redredwiney · 02/10/2021 09:42

@HerBigChance

When men have to be careful, it's due to a threat from other men. So men are the threat towards both sexes.
Oh that’s such a good point! Can’t believe I didn’t think of that!
OP posts:
millenialblush · 02/10/2021 09:45

Exactly what @herbigchance said - in both instances men are the problem, and actually in both instances women could still be the target.

UpshittsCreek · 02/10/2021 09:45

Look to how both crimes are played out in the courts. The victim being drunk is never a reason for the accused walking free in a mugging case, is the man's underwear logged as evidence and used by the defence to show the man was open to being mugged that night? Do we ever dismiss someone being mugged because if they weren't looking to be mugged then why did they walk down that street by themselves, they should have stayed at home if they weren't looking to be mugged etc etc.. The problem is that we constantly put the responsibility back on to women to avoid rape and murder and the narrative needs to change, as it's literally used as a defence during rape trails.

Also the type of crime your cousin is talking about happens to both genders. He is a fool to compare rape and being mugged. The stakes are completely different.

UpshittsCreek · 02/10/2021 09:50

Also there was a study where they asked men and women what we they afraid of happening if they passed a group of the opposite sex when walking by themselves.
Women said they were afraid of being raped
Men said they were afraid of being laughed at...
Men don't see women as a threat,only other men (in general of course, men can be victims of dv)

QuentinBunbury · 02/10/2021 09:51

Men are more at risk from being murdered or attacked by other men than women whilst out, yet women are the ones advised to be careful and made to feel like they shouldn't be out/walk home alone etc.

UpshittsCreek · 02/10/2021 09:52

*what they were afraid of...not the jumbled up mess I wroteHmm

HalfShrunkMoreToGo · 02/10/2021 09:54

The average man stands a chance of fighting off another average man.

The average woman knows that if an average man attacks her she will lose. Not only will she lose, the type of violence is different. When a man is worried about being attacked he is concerned about being hit, kicked, stabbed. When a woman is worried about being attacked she is concerned about being raped as well as the other physical attacks.

Floisme · 02/10/2021 10:24

I would agree with your cousin that men are often victims of violence and point that statistics also show that violent crime is overwhelmingly committed by men. And then I would ask him when he thinks men, as a group, are going to acknowledge and take some responsibility for this blight on our society.

Thelnebriati · 02/10/2021 10:24

Some men will never get the difference between being mugged and being raped, but you don't have to believe they are arguing in good faith.

What is the exact argument you want to make? The problem I have with much of the 'safety advice' is that its rubbish and doesn't keep women safe, while at the same time putting responsibility for safety on to the victim of violence.
And men can't get pregnant as a result of a mugging.

oakleydo · 02/10/2021 10:26

I bet your cousin doesn't wonder if he can go walking alone in the woods or countryside or go running in the morning before daylight or after dark

FlemCandango · 02/10/2021 10:32

I would ask him to think about the 'reclaim the night' movement. Started in the 1970s in Yorkshire, in response to the Yorkshire Ripper. The police at the time were judgemental towards the women the ripper murdered, they also started to implement curfews for women. Women were challenging the assumption that they should be held accountable for being murdered, and change their behaviour to lower the risk. Why wasn't a curfew suggested for men? A very reasonable question that still seems revolutionary!

midgedude · 02/10/2021 10:35

Anecdotal my experience of rape , whilst not violent in other ways , had left more of a long lasting effect on me than my husband getting his jaw broken in a random attack

I do think it's not just a male problem to solve

Males have more power and influence in the system but females probably have more influence in a child's early years

Every mother or primary school teacher who excuses a boys bad behaviour as boys being boys for example

Whirlywooo · 02/10/2021 10:36

Ask your cousin if, when he had his keys in his hand, it was because he feared getting raped, abducted, sex-trafficked? Does he text/phone someone when he gets in the back of a taxi? Does he have to text someone when he gets in from a taxi journey to let them know he's ok? Does he cross over the road if there's a man (or woman) walking towards him or behind him, for fear of what they may do to him?

Men may be fearful of getting mugged/attacked by another man but they stand a much better chance of fighting off their attacker. It's men that both sexes fear, for different reasons.

BlueBrush · 02/10/2021 10:43

Some excellent points above, OP.

I'll also add that

  • it's not just "out after dark, in dark alleys" that women get sexually assaulted - it's daylight in very public places.
  • it's not just about avoiding bumping into a sexual predator - sexual predators will actively seek out women, wherever are. You could say the same is true of muggers, but it really isn't to the same extent.
EmbarrassingAdmissions · 02/10/2021 10:57

I've just watched a part of Triggernometry and they fail to understand this. They frame WC as part of a very small number of psychopaths who do this. They reject calls for men to talk about this as if it's anything to do with them.

Yet male violence in a public health problem and occurs in multiple settings, across multiple demographics.

MiladyBerserko · 02/10/2021 11:07

Your cousin is an arsehole. Some men cannot bear to acknowledge the risks to women and girls, and bring the subject back to men being attacked. Firstly, men are attacked by other men and secondly, sexual assault on men is rare.

I was sexually assaulted coming home from school. In my school uniform. Maybe your cousin has a 'but what about the men' argument to counter that.

Or maybe you should tell him that he's part of the problem, like all those men trawling the Sarah Everard comments on The Times and Daily Mail reports, asking 'what about the men'. Stop debating with him and just tell him he's a prick.

Floisme · 02/10/2021 11:36

@FlemCandango

I would ask him to think about the 'reclaim the night' movement. Started in the 1970s in Yorkshire, in response to the Yorkshire Ripper. The police at the time were judgemental towards the women the ripper murdered, they also started to implement curfews for women. Women were challenging the assumption that they should be held accountable for being murdered, and change their behaviour to lower the risk. Why wasn't a curfew suggested for men? A very reasonable question that still seems revolutionary!
I still remember the reaction from men to the suggestion of a male curfew during the Yorkshire Ripper murders - not just random men on the street, I'm talking about men I considered to be friends. Their incredulity and outrage at the very idea that they should be inconvenienced taught me a lesson I've never forgotten.
EmbarrassingAdmissions · 02/10/2021 11:43

Or maybe you should tell him that he's part of the problem, like all those men trawling the Sarah Everard comments on The Times and Daily Mail reports, asking 'what about the men'

Yes, what about the men? What is it that stops them regulating eachother? You see internalised misogyny and victim blaming on a regular basis on MN. Do men's fora spent their time victim blaming those affected by male violence? Do they discuss it and possible solutions amongst themselves?

Floisme · 02/10/2021 11:48

I've just watched a part of Triggernometry and they fail to understand this. They frame WC as part of a very small number of psychopaths who do this. They reject calls for men to talk about this as if it's anything to do with them.

Disappointing but not surprising. You would think that decent, intelligent men would realise it's their own interest to acknowledge and tackle this - after all, as the op's cousin has said, they are vulnerable too - but, with a few honourable exceptions, there seems to be a complete blind spot.

334bu · 02/10/2021 11:52

Here is why. Simple

Help me find some arguments re women walking home at night
Eyesofdisarray · 02/10/2021 11:52

Your cousin is wrong: he probably knows this deep down and will resort to NAMALT/ what about the men???
It's spectacularly missing the point.
Women are unlikely to overpower a man: another man stands a better chance although not a given as most violent crime comes from MEN.
Look at the size of Sarah Everard; a petite woman who would have been easily overpowered.
And please; a polite request to drop the YR label for PS; it does a dis service to the victims and sullies a beautiful county

334bu · 02/10/2021 12:04

And please; a polite request to drop the YR label for PS; it does a disservice to the victims and sullies a beautiful county

👆

Tanith · 02/10/2021 12:42

“ He even made the point that when he used to live in a dodgy part of London, he would carry his keys in his hand just in case he needed to protect himself, just like women are accustomed to doing.”

That was the only time he felt the need to do so? It’s not just the dodgy areas that are a risk for women.