46% of trans people disabled, 52% neurodiverse.

[ItsAllGoingToBeFine]

I'm sure this has come up before - these figures are astonishing, but never seem to be explored in the reports. (This is from Trans Lives 2021 www.transactual.org.uk/trans-lives-21 )

I'm certain these numbers are way higher than in the general population?

Does being trans cause disabilities? Or why does being disabled make you more likely to be trans.

Surely these questions need to be answered rather than just pointed out and then ignored. I would be very interested to know if any of our trans readers have any insight into this?

Without a clear definition of what constitutes 'transphobic content' in the media those stats are pointless.

Any mention of biology? Pointing out that sex is immutable? Not sharing their beliefs? Helen Joyce's book? The word woman?

This ended up almost saga-length & wandered off from the point a bit, sorry, but not really up to editing, so TL;DR: self-ID for oppression points &/or to justify poor behaviour is absolutely A Thing in TRA & SJW circles. Would not trust this survey as far as I can spit. (My toothpaste would like to thank gravity for enabling it to reach the basin.)

There is (& has been for much this century, courtesy of ever-improving internet access & exponential growth in ways to communicate with others online - but greatly amping up over at least the last decade) an enormous trend for self-diagnosis. DID & Tourette’s are the flavours du jour, but autism remains a perennial favourite - the hashtag “actually autistic” was partly developed to try to distinguish the voices/conversations of people with ASD from parents of people with it; but also because the adults shamelessly LARPing autism were such a nightmare. Obviously the shameless bit meant they flooded the hashtag - “self-diagnosis is valid!” & “diagnosis/healthcare is a privilege!” are BIG things on social media. Obviously in the US there are people who won’t be able to afford to engage with the diagnostic process, but firmly declaring you absolutely have something (not infrequently accompanied by lecturing people at length about it & buying items - eg chewable jewellery - that will act as visual signifiers of [perceived] Special Status) is really not ok. When you have the necessary insurance & won’t seek professional diagnosis (because self-diagnosis is valid/because if you have an ASD diagnosis they will strip you of [insert rights here]/because if you have an ASD diagnosis & go into hospital they will murder you [bizarrely doesn’t stop people sharing the self-diagnosis with staff]) or you refuse to accept being told (sometimes multiple times) you do not have ASD - also a problem. The UK has its own issues with NHS waiting lists & ongoing underdiagnosis of girls & women (the latter, particularly) but again, rather than “I think I may have ASD, I’m particularly struggling with [thing(s)], could anyone recommend some resources/how to talk to my GP about referral” there’s a lot of “my GP is rubbish/waiting lists to specialists are too long/they told me it’s not ASD: self-ID is valid & now watch me stim-dance”. ADHD is still popular too.

Physical disability is another arena where social media frankly isn’t doing anyone any favours. Even on here - “I have sore joints” cue chorus of people insisting the poster must require investigating for Ehlers-Danlos Syndrome despite their clarifying that they are not, & never have been, hypermobile any joint (or even slightly flexible); nobody in their family is “bendy”; & they have none of the diagnostic-criteria-forming issues people have reeled off. In online “support” spaces people ask what they need to say to get diagnosed with things; if there’s a way to “make sure” tests show “what they need to”; people seek recommendations for doctors who will basically give them what they want, whether that’s a particular diagnosis, particular treatments, or both; & of course it’s an endlessly tour of Elevenerife as people vie to be Sickest Of Them All. (Which leaves anyone who’d just like some actual kind of actual support group stranded, yes.)

Anyone who is actually disabled will tell you it is not fun. Even if you have a positive outlook & immense gratitude for how things are, it is inescapable that there will be times it is awkward/difficult/frustrating/painful/other. And you don’t get to switch it off. Unlike the people who thoughtfully broadcast their lives on social media - always enough “spoons” for the things they want to do, but their share of the cleaning/visiting family where they won’t be the centre of attention/an activity of someone else’s choice? No spoons. Sometimes there is even a miraculous replenishment of the cutlery drawer if something comes up! A lot of the people who claim ASD have similar issues with what causes “sensory overload”. And while that is absolutely complicated & variable, if the crowds that are never ok are the unfun ones but you’re fine in packed concerts & at protests & shopping is only an issue when it stops being for you…

There is a definite theme of exploiting groups of people who actually are oppressed & marginalised. A strange kind of oppression Top Trumps - the more marginalised you are, the less - & indeed fewer - people are allowed to question you; & the louder you’re allowed to shout. In the world of SJWs, I mean, where as we know there is some serious warping of ideas about privilege & oppression. But if you look at biographies on social media, as well as the pronouns, if they’re in the oppression olympics, you’ll also have the announcement they’re trans, queer, disabled, autistic [& both intersex & Jewish get surprisingly frequent mentions].

Hugely frustratingly, autism is often used as an explanation for rudeness &/or poor behaviour by these groups (NB not only those who identify as trans &/or non-binary) in a way I’ve only seen once (from a parent for their child) from anyone [who is a parent of/carer for someone] with an actual diagnosis. “If you think I’m being rude I’m not, it’s because I’m autistic.” The expectation is that their rudeness go unchallenged & should someone dare say anything they’ll be accused - at the very least - of ableism; possibly retraumatising the person who was rude to them; right up to the traditional You Are A Nazi. Equally: “I had a meltdown & screamed at/hit/threw things (possibly including furniture) at family/friends/educational staff & they are being ableist by enforcing consequences to these actions” or “people are so ableist I had a meltdown in a public place & I heard someone say I looked like a toddler having a tantrum lying on the floor screaming & crying”… etc.

As we all know, just saying you are a thing doesn’t make you it. If this were going to get people to look closely at why so many girls with autism are declaring themselves to be trans &/or non-binary - & then ensure they get appropriate support before making any changes; or even develop resources specifically for girls with autism as they enter puberty - that would be great. The dismal methodology & “next steps” makes it seem they were actively looking for further backing for the Most Oppressed Of All claim; & potentially to further claims that trans people are being denied (life-saving) healthcare - possibly to serve as a springboard for a further survey about transphobia in healthcare to really go for that dream scenario of funding healthcare for trans people being paramount. Absolutely trans people deserve excellent care on the NHS. But only as excellent as the rest of the population. I do wonder if the recent BBC “Panorama” episode about the surgical backlog would give any of them who talk about “life-saving surgery” pause, but sadly I suspect not. There seems to be no comprehension years on waiting lists is not unique to the trans experience & people throughout the UK are languishing in agony &/or anguish on all sorts of lists.

Sorry, I’ve got away from myself so am adding a TL;DR at the top.

@NitroNine excellent post!

Lily Madigan self-identified as having autism. This is the problem with so many of these surveys (not just regarding “trans” issues, but all types). They are often self-selecting, which makes the figures less than useless. If you want the true figures, you’d probably need to be in a position to check medical records. Unfortunately nobody at GIDS seems to have bothered.

That the big Swedish study didn’t look at that as a factor might indicate that it was not particularly on the radar as significant back in 2012. Another reason to consider whether this might relate somehow to the huge wave of new cases that has occurred recently.

Clearly you're going to get remarkable results in any poll of "trans" people.

For starters (nearly) 100% claim to be in some way not the sex they actually are, so initial signs of reliability are poor.

In an attempted survey of benefits from childhood transition (Turban 2020), 73% of respondents said they'd had puberty blockers after the age of 18, so they just chucked those replies out.

Transwomen frequently claim to have period symptoms and to have difficulty opening jars.

They also repeatedly falsely claim that trans people were foundational in the gay rights movement.

And "feeling suicidal" and "suffering transphobia" are part of their group and self justification for getting everything they want, so for an individual to say they didn't would be letting the side down somewhat.

So clearly any self-reporting figures are going to be immensely unreliably.

All you can say is "46% of trans people claim to be disabled", but that no more makes the claim true than "99% of trans people claim to be the opposite sex".

Now, in reality, there certainly is a significant overlap between trans identities and various other conditions. Trans appears to be the current central hub that lots of disparate things latch on to. I can certainly believe the "neurodiverse" thing is higher than population average.

But you'd need proper non-self-reporting data to figure it out properly. It is a population of fantasists.

I wouldn’t want to dismiss the autism and trans link just because someone did self identify. It’s pretty intuitive - what is I believe a reasonably common feature of autism is seeing the world in sets of rules which could include how each gender behaves so if that set behaviour doesn’t appeal to an autistic individual the feeling of discomfort can be stronger than an NT individual. Transitioning then seems like it relieves that feeling, as it’s another set of rules saying it’s ok to behave in the non gender conforming way you want to because you’re trans.

Very happy for someone more experienced to explain it much better and also happy to rephrase /redact anything not coming across right as I’m a complete layperson here.

Oh, absolutely, there is real evidence that autism in particular is massively overrepresented in the trans population.

But that data does not come from a self-reporting survey of people ticking the "neurodiverse" box. It's not 52%. But it is much higher than the general population.

I'd be more interested in seeing the reverse stat, which I haven't - what percentage of young people with an autism diagnosis have adopted some sort of "trans" identity.

@timeisnotaline

I wouldn’t want to dismiss the autism and trans link just because someone did self identify. It’s pretty intuitive - what is I believe a reasonably common feature of autism is seeing the world in sets of rules which could include how each gender behaves so if that set behaviour doesn’t appeal to an autistic individual the feeling of discomfort can be stronger than an NT individual. Transitioning then seems like it relieves that feeling, as it’s another set of rules saying it’s ok to behave in the non gender conforming way you want to because you’re trans.

Very happy for someone more experienced to explain it much better and also happy to rephrase /redact anything not coming across right as I’m a complete layperson here.

If that’s aimed at me because I mentioned the fragrant Madigan, then I can only say that I was not intending in any way to suggest there was no link with genuine autism.

I believe it has been established by medics that young people with autism are more likely to consider themselves trans. I believe GIDS confirmed it, but also hadn’t bothered to quantify it or assess why there was a link and what it might signify.

However self-identifying as having autism is potentially almost as popular among young people as identifying as trans and there are obvious reasons for the overlap, particularly with relation to the huge wave of ROGD teens and also those who are likely claiming trans for reasons of narcissism.

So while there almost certainly is a genuine link between the current wave of transitioners and a diagnosis of autism, the figures in that survey are, I believe, worthless. They are almost certainly sought for reasons of propaganda and are likely harmful, rather than useful to those with severe gender dysphoria, who mostly make up the original group of people who transitioned. They are the people examined in the 2012 study I mentioned, which made no mention of a link.

Apologies, I still haven’t spelled out clearly my exact point.

We have no way of knowing whether there is a link with genuine severe cases of gender dysphoria - the original group for whom transition was a medical treatment carried out as a last resort. The 2021 Swedish study did look at links with psychiatric co-morbidity, which suggests that that was a significant factor they had noted. They don’t mention autism at all, though of course, it’s not possible to rule out the possibility that it have been overlooked.

The link with autism has been established only recently and as far as I am aware, has been noted as significant in young people. I think, in time, it will come to be considered that there has been a huge over-diagnosis and it might be discovered there is no significant link between genuine gender dysphoria and a diagnosis of autism, rather that those with autism are perhaps caught up in the current wave, which may be due to a form of mass psychosis, rather than a true rise in severe gender dysphoria.

I’m autistic and I also have an autistic daughter (both diagnosed).

Growing up autistic in a neurotypical-led world means your sense of identity can be almost entirely missing. We seek to belong but cannot find where and keep making social mistakes. We then isolate ourselves.

If the trans movement had been around when I was a teen I think I would have been extremely vulnerable to it. My daughter is. I’m glad she’s not in school because it is so dominant there.

Re self-identifying as autistic… the National Autistic Society supports it. There are many good reasons why a person may self-identify. Maybe there are some very lost individuals who have mistakenly self-identified but my bet would be they have other difficulties that may present in similar ways (PTSD, BPD) that means their outward presentation in the world and needs for support aren’t that different.

I think, in time, it will come to be considered that there has been a huge over-diagnosis and it might be discovered there is no significant link between genuine gender dysphoria and a diagnosis of autism, rather that those with autism are perhaps caught up in the current wave, which may be due to a form of mass psychosis, rather than a true rise in severe gender dysphoria.

Yes, this seems very, very likely to me.

Can I just say that the image produced by that amazing turn of phrase "now watch my stim dance" has got me sniggering away on the train.

In my observation of people who pop up on here, Im talking about the cyclist for instance, or Amee Challonor or even big Steph or the person at the Labour Party conference claiming abuse in the loos, they all instantly strike me as Neurodiverse.
I think for people on the spectrum (and Im speaking as someone who may very well be on the spectrum myself) adopting an identity that others are forced to pay attention to must be very tempting when its difficult to fit in socially.

@NiceGerbil

Identifying as having a disability on self diagnosis is prevalent now in some sections of society it seems.

Which really pisses me off personally.

Because.

In ye olden days the wording identity as having a disability was used for the same good reasons as identify ethnicity (I think it's usually called).

It was because not everyone with a disability, even one with significant impact on life, accepted that label for themselves. It was to be understanding that it was sensitive and if you didn't want to say yes you didn't have to. In things it was used for something other than equalities monitoring or similar. The questions would be specific about diagnosis, limitations etc. Eg some insurance, certain benefits applications (for all the good that did/ does) etc.

For ethnicity it was because it was another sensitive question. Someone born here with Irish parents and strong family connections in Ireland etc may identify as Irish. Similarly those of parents of different backgrounds may identify as one, the other, or as both. Iyswim.

The idea that a person would choose to ID as having a disability just didn't really occur to anyone and I doubt it happened much. Ditto a white person with v English background for years identifying as Chinese. I suspect that doesn't happen much but still.

The useful term identify as. Has been misused and bastardised as so much other stuff has. And it's original use for stats etc made meaningless.

But would not 'identify as' be the exact wrong wording. If someone has a condition, but does not feel that defines them or even thinks they dont infact have that condition (very common in some mental health conditions) then it should be something opposite as identifying as, as they do actually have the condition but dont identify as having it, iyswim?

dyslek

An extreme form of narcissism, which demands that the person is the centre of attention all the time, where the person will appropriate medical conditions and possibly invent situations where they wish to encourage synpathy from others.
Using their own fake vulnerability, they are able to access influential positions, then bully others into, for want of a better word, "worshipping" them, giving them a public voice, an unquestioning acceptance of whatever they say or do.

Would it not be quite easy to do some proper research on this. Surely doctors / GIDS would be able to say I have had x patients diagnosed with GD and diagnosed autism, GD and a diagnosed disability? Would Transactual not be better at lobbying for this to happen? It seems their survey is woefully flawed in all sorts of ways - surely good robust data on trans people is a good thing, and I don't understand why it hasn't been done? Basic stuff like knowing the prevalence of comorbidities surely isn't that hard?

@WeeBisom

I’m also amazed at the stats like 80 percent of non binary people have experienced transphobia at work. I’d be curious to know what they mean by “transphobic” - the figures seem shockingly high.

It would be considered transphobic to use the ‘wrong’ pronouns, eg saying “can she please complete this task” to a supervisor about another employee who has decided they want to be called ‘non binary’, and is clearly female. It would be considered transphobic to direct a male, who has come into work on Monday morning and decided he is now female, to use the men’s toilets as per the law. Let’s be clear - what I’d consider to be transphobic, and what some TRAs would, are worlds apart!

My daughter is autistic and has expressed a wish to be treated like a boy. She's asked us to call her by male names, and wears a chest binder, but has never expressed a wish to take it further by having surgery or anything like that. I think (and it's difficult, because I can't engage her in conversation), that she didn't fit into the typical teenage female gender stereotype, and found it easier to be 'male'. I don't think she actually wants to be male. It's just the more appealing alternative for her. She did once ask me for testosterone treatment. I told her no because she was too young. She hasn't mentioned it since. She was always stereotypically female at primary school, but since she went to high school it all changed because she didn't follow the same path as her peers. She's still very dependant on me and somewhat childlike. She's 17.

I find it really difficult to comprehend. She picks up names from manga characters and uses them. They change, probably annually. She dresses in clothes that I would consider are targeted at girls, although tend to be loser fitting due to her sensory issues. She wears skirts and dresses occasionally.

I can't bring myself to refer to her as a boy, or use the names she chooses, because ultimately, I don't think it will actually help.

Nitro excellent post. As a disabled person (actual, not able to identify out of it when it gets awkward or not fun any more) I agree with every word.

Statistics become meaningless once self ID gets involved.

@OrangeSamphire

I’m autistic and I also have an autistic daughter (both diagnosed).

Growing up autistic in a neurotypical-led world means your sense of identity can be almost entirely missing. We seek to belong but cannot find where and keep making social mistakes. We then isolate ourselves.

If the trans movement had been around when I was a teen I think I would have been extremely vulnerable to it. My daughter is. I’m glad she’s not in school because it is so dominant there.

Re self-identifying as autistic… the National Autistic Society supports it. There are many good reasons why a person may self-identify. Maybe there are some very lost individuals who have mistakenly self-identified but my bet would be they have other difficulties that may present in similar ways (PTSD, BPD) that means their outward presentation in the world and needs for support aren’t that different.

I think self-ID might be acceptable for some purposes, however there are times when accuracy is important and (in my opinion) an official diagnosis should be required.

There appears to be a rise in narcissistic traits at a societal level and an increasing number of people identifying into groups for personal benefit, rather than need. An obvious example would be male prisoners claiming they are women in order to be moved to women’s prisons, however it isn’t a new phenomenon. Earlier examples would include the PDSA which attempted to provide free veterinary care for all on low incomes who felt they needed it, but eventually had to introduce proof of receipt of certain benefits as more and more people self-identified as poverty stricken.

Where available help is limited, if allowed to, those people take away important resources from those in genuine need. I understand the generosity in including all who feel they need help, but unfortunately as the movement grows and it becomes known that advantage is available, those who use all such inform to their benefit will catch on and the situation will become untenable.

Not sure if it is relevant but a large number of the non binary and younger ‘trans’ people are exactly the sort of young people who, 25 years ago, would have been getting into paganism and witchcraft, and 35 years ago would have been gothlings.

In my experience during those years, a very large proportion were what would now be called neurodiverse, some with very obvious autistic traits and others with Asperger traits, many with disabilities too.

The difference is that neither paganism or gothdom had long term physical effects. I will be very glad when those that don’t ‘fit’ into society find something less physically dangerous and less aggressive to cotton on to that the trans/NB path.

Am I the only one that read the report that talks about 46% people who responded to the request for opinions as having a disability and not of ALL trans people?

If you do a questionaire on health care, who do you think will be the most likely to want to respond? People that do not need to access healthcare?

If you do a questionaire on health care, who do you think will be the most likely to want to respond?

It wasn't a questionnaire on healthcare. It was a general survey about the lives of trans people. Disability was just one of many demographic and thematic questions.

If you do a questionaire on health care, who do you think will be the most likely to want to respond?

I think most posters who are advocates for decent evidence/data collection and analysis are aware of the substantial limitations of non-probabilistic data collection via surveys.