The Swindon Primary school toilets - parent speaks out.

[Whitefire]

Following on from the original thread about the primary school doing a U turn on the gender neutral toilets, a parent of the child at the centre of it has spoken out.

www.swindonadvertiser.co.uk/news/19600460.dad-whose-child-identifies-girl-devastated-school-gender-neutral-toilet-row/

There is the usual car / doll part (it's not about stereotypes but is in absolutely every narrative), but I found this quote interesting:

I can understand parents kicking off if my biological boy is using the girls’ toilets but I thought gender-neutral toilets were a good solution.

So there is an acknowledgment of biological reality, but also then the idea that making the girls use the toilets with lots of boys is better.

The solution has to be a third space, it simply doesn't work otherwise.

I can understand parents kicking off if my biological boy is using the girls’ toilets but I thought gender-neutral toilets were a good solution.

A complete lack of acknowledgement of any need for reflection. No, "I thought this was an idea that served my individual needs very well. A large number of people objected to something that served only my individual needs to the detriment of their children. I don't know why I should care about that. My solution is the only solution that works for me so crack on with it."

Compare and contrast third spaces and gender-neutral toilets which the girls are compelled to use.

What are the benefits obtained, and by whom, for the girls not to be able to opt out of gender-neutral spaces?

Why is it always the girls or women’s toilets being turned into unisex?

Why not just make a unisex one that’s for everyone and keep the girls/women’s room?

@MarshmallowSwede

Why is it always the girls or women’s toilets being turned into unisex?

Why not just make a unisex one that’s for everyone and keep the girls/women’s room?

In this case, they all were. So the girls were expected to walk past the urinals before using the toilet.

He added: “Why do the parents care? It’s toilets and times have changed. The headteacher puts all the kids in the school first.

That's a man who cannot conceive of other parents doing the exact same thing he did: advocate for their children's needs.

Astonishingly self-absorbed, to put it mildly.

And no, the head teacher did not "put all the kids in the school first", she put one male pupil first to the detriment of all others.

Gender neutral is what we have in sex separation

I wonder how this particular child would have fared if the father hadn't "battle(d) it all for a couple of years because I’m a bit of a geezer" and just bought the child dolls instead of making them cry by buying unwanted cars. And not made any kind of comment about it, or about toys being for boys/girls. And let the child wear whatever they wanted to in nursery and generally not been so rigid in applying sex-based stereotypes to their child.

Or how about the school make a special exception for this child if they can make the necessary promises to the girls that they will not misbehave, and the girls agree?

The thing that most stood out for me was, the presumption that what a 7 year old wants they should get.

No, just say no.

It's a good lesson for life too. You can't always get what you want. Life's not fair. I say it to my kids all the time.

The story misses the bit where it's explained why this child has a problem with the male toilets.

Psychologically what a disaster for this 7 year old child - initially being presented as being so powerful that the whole system is remodelled to facilitate their wishes and then it's withdrawn. How on earth does a vulnerable and immature 7 year old make sense of that?

I'm genuinely sorry for the school that the Head didn't initially have access to wiser voices reminding her that she can accommodate the demands of one child's father without stripping out the rights of so many others. But well done to all the individual parents for having the courage to stand up for their own children. Third spaces are the way to go in schools and what a shame this school has learnt that the hard way.

@Jaysmith71

Or how about the school make a special exception for this child if they can make the necessary promises to the girls that they will not misbehave, and the girls agree?

Not sure if your suggestion is serious or not, but assuming it is, this is a terrible idea.

It is unethical for adults to attempt to get girls (and all children) to give up their n attempt would violate a number of their rights under the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child, in particular about the right to have parents act in their best interests.

Furthermore this would put girls who are not okay with sharing under pressure to single themselves out. And potentially force them to either disclose things they should not be forced to disclose, or force them to acquiesce and endure losing a provision they need in silence.

The EHRC issued clear guidance in 2014 for schools in such a case: they must make adjustments for the trans-identifying pupil without infringing on the rights of the other pupils. Their suggestions are use of an accessible facility, use of a teacher facility or use of a specifically created third space that is mixed-sex as an alternative to single-sex facilities.

This should read:

It is unethical for adults to attempt to get girls (and all children) to give up their rights and such an attempt would violate a number of their rights under the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child, in particular about the right to have parents act in their best interests.

So which toilets are junior using now?

@AssassinatedBeauty

I wonder how this particular child would have fared if the father hadn't "battle(d) it all for a couple of years because I’m a bit of a geezer" and just bought the child dolls instead of making them cry by buying unwanted cars. And not made any kind of comment about it, or about toys being for boys/girls. And let the child wear whatever they wanted to in nursery and generally not been so rigid in applying sex-based stereotypes to their child.

Well yes. This comes up again and again in these stories - parents with rigid ideas about gender roles somehow end up with trans-identifying children. It's a mystery.

I’d love to see a controlled experiment say with public toilets in a high st roughly:

• at one end of the street have ‘mens’ and ‘mixed’ (grrr)
• at the other have ‘mens’ ‘womens’ and ‘unisex’

And just do a count to see who goes where. I can’t believe this argument has been raging for what 5 or so years without any group stepping up to trial this. If we are being fair and ‘inclusive’ - we have to provide for everyone and that means provision for women who cannot use a mixed sex space.

@AssassinatedBeauty

I wonder how this particular child would have fared if the father hadn't "battle(d) it all for a couple of years because I’m a bit of a geezer" and just bought the child dolls instead of making them cry by buying unwanted cars. And not made any kind of comment about it, or about toys being for boys/girls. And let the child wear whatever they wanted to in nursery and generally not been so rigid in applying sex-based stereotypes to their child.

This.

Like a billion times.

Yet another 'geezer' father who couldn't deal with an effeminate, potentially gay, male child.

Tale as old as time.

There really does need to be massive research done and a separation of the 3 distinct groups.

1. adult males.
2. teens. Mostly female.
3. children, who appear to be heavily influenced by parents.

@AssassinatedBeauty

I wonder how this particular child would have fared if the father hadn't "battle(d) it all for a couple of years because I’m a bit of a geezer" and just bought the child dolls instead of making them cry by buying unwanted cars. And not made any kind of comment about it, or about toys being for boys/girls. And let the child wear whatever they wanted to in nursery and generally not been so rigid in applying sex-based stereotypes to their child.

Excellent post. If the child had been given more freedom to play and dress however he wanted, devoid of any expectations from the ‘geezer’ father, then maybe he wouldn’t have needed to have adopted such an extreme position at such a tender age

@NecessaryScene

The story misses the bit where it's explained why this child has a problem with the male toilets.

What do you mean by this please, Necessary?

I am so saddened by the fact that these parents have no clue about normal child development. The role of teachers, in particular head teachers, should surely be to explain that little children should be allowed to play with whatever interests them without being shoe horned into a damaging stereotype. The harm being done to children is awful.

"Geezer". I know what I think about that.

I can understand parents kicking off if my biological boy is using the girls’ toilets but I thought gender-neutral toilets were a good solution.

"I can understand parents kicking off about one boy using the girls’ toilets but I thought an arrangement where all the boys were using the same toilets as the girls was a good solution."

If he had thought about that for even a second he might have realised that there was a problem with that 'good solution'.

How can anyone think that if there is a problem with one single boy in the girls' toilets that allowing all the boys in is somehow better?

'bit of a geezer' - there's someone who is definitely completely secure in his own gender, eh?

@AssassinatedBeauty

I wonder how this particular child would have fared if the father hadn't "battle(d) it all for a couple of years because I’m a bit of a geezer" and just bought the child dolls instead of making them cry by buying unwanted cars. And not made any kind of comment about it, or about toys being for boys/girls. And let the child wear whatever they wanted to in nursery and generally not been so rigid in applying sex-based stereotypes to their child.

Yes, I suspect in a lot of cases that by being rather ridged, it actually makes the child begin to push back harder.

This seemed to be the approach used by older gender clinics for kids, they attempted to take the pressure off. Though they didn't always just accept that child's rigidity either.

I have wondered if, for some of these families, the issue really is rigidity rather than sexism. So you have a parent who is a rigid thinker, and the apple doesn't fall far from the tree, the child is similar.

Then they are offered this rather crack-pot gender ideology as the answer, and it just provides another ridged framework. So you have this dad who feels like he has really changed his outlook in a good way, who doesn't see himself as devaluing women or girls, but can't quite understand why others are objecting.