Men dominating the conversation even at ‘women’s’ event

[AliasGrape]

Recently attended an event for women in a particular (traditionally male dominated) industry. The event was part of a larger conference with both male and female delegates. This particular event was a coaching event for the ‘women in X’ group run by a female professional coach.

I am not in X industry, had been asked to attend in a slightly different capacity, so was able to mostly observe.

Two men from the conference attended the event. I’m not sure if they asked whether it would be ok or just assumed - presumably they were interested in the topic.

Predictably, these two men totally dominated the conversation - speaking over the women repeatedly. At one point one interrupted the coach and gave a lengthy spiel which was basically a less coherent version of what she was already in the middle of saying.

I know this is nothing new and entirely predictable. It was just fascinating if not utterly depressing to see it ‘in the wild’. I’ve previously worked in very different types of workplaces (with far more women though the men there were perfectly capable of similar behaviour) and now work freelance from home usually so don’t have other colleagues to deal with. To see it happen in a group and an event specifically targeted at women and explicitly titled as for them, to empower them - that was quite something.

If it had been my industry/ event I think I would have struggled not to comment, but very much felt it wasn’t my place.

Do other people have similar experiences?

Looks like the event wasn't well moderated either. I sometimes use the below tool when I am meetings and keep tab either on times or number of questions:

arementalkingtoomuch.com/

I run training courses in my workplace. I remember one particularly tiresome young man who kept trying to derail the topic we were working on by sharing with us his scintillating nuggets of wisdom. We were all getting quite fed up. One one occasion, he interjected “ChaToilLeam, did you know [insert irrelevant fact]” and I just deadpan said “Yes”.

Another time: “Can I ask a question, ChaToilLeam?” “Does it relate to our current topic?” “Nooo…” “Then, no.”

I’m a grumpy older woman and I just shut that shit down now. Total waste of time for other participants who are actually there to learn something. Only regret I have ever had with such an approach is not cracking down more quickly.

What is a 'Not a dude' ?

Not at a specific Women's event but at work certainly.

I work in a very male field of research and development, the example that sticks out most is a couple of years ago I was working on a project in a consortium. At one meeting, a member of the group had a student (M) on placement accompany him.

I presented, shared the physical samples we had produced & my findings. My associate (F), who is a Professor and expert on the topic, started discussing the results of testing she had done on my samples.

My associate, partway through her presentation is interrupted by the student, who tells her that she must be wrong. He had recently read a paper on the topic and the theoretical paper predicted the results would be different to her actual findings. He actually said 'that can't be right'.

We had the actual physical items on the table, the results of hundreds of externally verified tests, and footage of the testing.

She was gracious, very firmly held her ground, and explained again the results, and told him to save his questions until the end. He was adamant that the paper couldn't be disproved and only backed down when the Chair interjected. His supervisor didn't even reign him in, just nodded along.

When I got back to the office I explained what had happened to my Business Partner, he actually gasped, and said that had never happened to him in 30 yrs in the industry....says it all really.

[quote tiktok]@CandyLeBonBon do you really think the coach was intimidated into not managing this situation better in case she erred in assuming Dave was a man....?

Whatevs. Coach should have shut him/her/them/zie up.

I have noticed this phenomenon all my life, from school onwards. In normal times, I went to open lectures at the local university. They had some big names occasionally. Every time questions opened, a man would speak, and if a woman had her hand up, a man with his hand up would be called to speak instead. I am not especially fond of standing up in front of 300 people and talking, but I actually deliberately try to pose a Q as it encourages other women!
One Big Name (man) said at the start of questions he would try to take the first Q from a woman, and then alternate man/woman after. This worked better, though no one challenged him about what if someone IDd as a woman. This was about three years ago. I think there would now be a fuss.

The other thing men do is to say ‘this isn’t so much a question, more of a comment’ and then ramble on smugly at length about themselves.

😡[/quote]
Not sure why you're tagging me? I wasn't the poster who brought gender identity into the conversation. My comment was querying the relevance of that poster's assertion that nobody knows whether anyone in the room was a nan or a woman, which I found a bit suspect, to be honest!

The other thing men do is to say ‘this isn’t so much a question, more of a comment’ and then ramble on smugly at length about themselves.

God yes, clicked on this thread to say this. Men loving doing the 'more of a comment than a question' thing. Especially at literary events, telling the author what the author really meant in their book.

A few years ago I listened to an interview with the author of the book "Why Men Fight". It was really interesting, and what particularly stuck with me was his statement that "testosterone is the status seeking hormone". I assess all of my encounters with men against this statement now and it makes perfect sense. Even my mild mannered, people pleasing DH, I can see how his interactions are always coached to gain someone's gratitude/admiration.

This has been a bit of a revelation to me - it feels like it explains something I've been trying to put my finger on for ages.

I commented on the gender split thread because in my experience of mixed groups the men take over and I am completely uninterested in what they have to say. No Nigel, I don't want to hear about your racing times, I want to hear your wife's jokes about her cracked nipples please!

I have this issue frequently at work. Last year we had a small Teams discussion following a company wide presentation about BLM and racism.

Our team of 6 includes a Chinese woman, a woman of Caribbean descent, 2 white women and 2 white men, guess who talked most?

Our manager is lovely but won't shut the men up and so I ended up trying to steer it back to the women who I knew through previous conversations had some really interesting things to say about the racism they and their families have experienced.

Even I (white) have some insight as my DH and DCs are Indian/ mixed and so we have had some issues but no, it was the older white guy who thought racism was overstated who had the most to say.

He also is very much "what about the men" in pretty much any circumstance and the younger man bravely if foolishly said he "hadn't really thought about it before" in regards to ongoing racism in the wider discussion involving several hundred colleagues. It was all a bit of a shit show.

I have a daughter in an industry that's mainly female. She gets frustrated that there's a man who always dominates the Zoom meetings, treating the women as if they know less, even though they're more experienced. Yet she's still "be kind" and TWAW. It makes me want to scream!.....

I am a corporate trainer in a field where 98% of staff are woman (except the senior managers , of course they’re all men). The three men I’ve had to train in the last six months have all been the same. (All struggled too, because they won’t listen as they already know everything and they therefore don’t need to listen to me.)

@MargaritaPie

Straight man Graham Glinehan does seem to be a rather dominant voice in gender-critical events, wouldn't you agree?

Nice try, Margarita, but no banana for you.

@FannyCann
It was supposed to be an hour but he managed to get an 'encore' after lunch. In fact lunch was cut short a bit to do it

I had to leave Scouts as a volunteer as the men really didn't want to listen to your ideas when planning meetings. It stopped being fun just being talked over. Constantly trying to out do other units to be the best ever with random competitive crap. Younger men showing you the right way to pitch a tent (when you are 20 years older and been camping since the 70s). They just wanted you to be there so parents felt reassured there was someone of the caring gender to provide first aid and cook better camp dinners, and less likely to be a paedo.
I suppose Scouts is 'there thing', but seeing as they have a lot of girls in the movement and profess to be inclusive they really could try a bit harder to make us feel listened to and not there to make tea.
It was not fun at all, and so much worse than any work environment I've been in, and so I have now left. But they still message me for my advice which is then passed off as their own to parents.

As soon as I read this I thought it would be construction.

I get it all the time, constantly get mansplained to, talked over etc.

I call people out on it now, in a firm but polite way. I often take people aside after a meeting to explain why their behaviour was unnecessary. Most of them don't realise they are doing anything wrong and think they were 'backing me up'. I really don't need that.

The industry is changing but very, very slowly.

At college we were a big group of people with a lot to get through, and one mature student interrupted the lecturer constantly to talk about what he'd learned from his job. After a few bouts of this I spoke to him in the break and told him that he was stopping the rest of us from learning and should stop it. He looked shocked, but I don't think he ever spoke again. The lecturer should have done it though.

@MargaritaPie

Straight man Graham Glinehan does seem to be a rather dominant voice in gender-critical events, wouldn't you agree?

Oh the irony of the thread being interrupted by a male with an irrelevant comment....

Fruitinator
Wasn't there a thread some time ago where a man kept interrupting the woman talking about a technical subject? Then he said that Dr Z, had proved a theory which rebutted the woman's ideas. She explained that she was Dr Z and that he had totally misunderstood her paper!

It's definitely a thing. I work with a male dominated service and they do love to tell me about Government finance (they're not Government and have no experience of finance). I now tell them that as I don't advise on the operational aspects of their work I'd appreciate the professional courtesy of not arguing about the application of 'Managing Public Money'.

@JellySlice

What is a 'Not a dude' ?

It gets even worse - if you click on 'dude' to add some time and then click 'not a dude' to add some time, it calculates the % of men talking. Not once is the word woman used on that website.

When I was a mature postgrad I noticed this in our discussion groups that one particular (younger) man would constantly talk over me. I took him on one side and told him that if he did it again I was going to pick him up in front of the group every EVERY time. He still did it a couple of times but after I began picking him up for it he soon stopped.

On another course we had a male attendee who rambled on and on and on such that others could hardly get a word in. To add insult to injury at the final discussion the (male) tutor accused me of dominating the conversation. I pointed out strongly that one person had in fact dominated the discussion and that if he did not withdraw the remark I would be making a formal discrimination complaint to the university authorities. Another woman piped up that she would be willing to join me in the complaint, and then another.

The tutor apologised and withdrew the comment, much abashed.

I think the answer is to highlight the situation, even at the risk of derailing the actual discussion. Sometimes you just need to lash back hard, even at the risk of getting the reputation for being "that" woman.

Presenter: Does anyone have any questions?
Smug bloke: Well, not a question, more of a comment, really...
P: Right. So is there anyone with an actual question, then?
SB: 🤨

Simitra, it's great to be "that woman" or to have her in your breakout group; people behave much better around her!

Yes I can be a real Bitch when I get going. Never been a people pleaser and never going to.

2 hour icebreaker.....shudder.

That's really interesting food for thought about the "status hormone."

I had to do some work with a group of stakeholders in a make dominated industry recently. The lack of listening skills, patronising, mansplaining rants... I couldn't believe it.