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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Labour have committed to single sex spaces

999 replies

flumpetto · 22/09/2021 14:00

Excluding trans

This is a step in the right direction at long last....

www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/keir-starmer-trans-women-labour-b1924832.html

OP posts:
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12
BettyFilous · 27/09/2021 14:26

@CharlieParley

we should be working towards a position where the law is sex and gender blind, and people are not required to be registered as male or female at birth for legal purposes.

The recording of sex is neither a violation of human rights not an intrusion into people's privacy. Alongside our date and place of birth, it is one of the most basic, and immutable, facts about a person.

The demand to cease recording sex and to remove all protections on the basis of sex from laws, policies and regulations comes from Principle 31 of the Yogyakarta Principles plus Ten.

This is not a human rights instrument like the Convention on the Elimination of All Forms of Discrimination Against Women, which unequivocally states that women are discriminated against because of their sex. It isn't like the European Convention on Human Rights, which carefully seeks to ensure that the basic human rights of all people are protected.

No, it's an advocacy document never debated and scrutinised either at the UN or the Council of Europe or the EU, or even our UK parliaments. We know from a number of its authors that the impact of implementing its demands on women, especially Principle 31, was never once considered. It is neither interested in upholding the rights of all people, nor in remedying, or even acknowledging discrimination suffered by any other groups, especially women.

The oppression of women and girls is one of the if not the oldest forms of oppression on the planet. It has been going on for thousands of years and there is no country on this planet that has succeeded in abolishing it in practice.

The only remedy we have to oppression on the basis of sex are laws that protect us on the basis of sex and policies and regulations that take sex into account.

The demand to cease recording sex, remove all protections on the basis of sex and enshrine gender identity in law is therefore an explicitly and profoundly anti-women commitment against women's equality and liberation from oppression.

Sex and gender blind policy making is a failure to recognise the needs of women and girls on the basis of their sex, which even in an egalitarian utopia will have to be met. Such policymaking is a tool to ensure the continued inequality of women and girls.

So no, we shouldn't work towards a position where the law is sex and gender blind, because that would benefit men at the expense of women. That's not a defensible or justifiable demand if you want all people to have equal rights and you want all people to have their needs met.

Above all, this is not a demand rooted in the doctrine of human rights, whose principles extend empathy to all and afford all people equal protection according to their needs, which includes the freedoms of thought, conscience, speech, expression, belief, religion and association but the doctrine of gender identity, which seeks to impose a singular quasi-religious ideology on all of us and whose adherents seek to punish opponents, ostracise apostates and pursue laws, policies and regulations that violate all of the listed freedoms.

That's not a benign, or even neutral position to take. It is a stance opposed to fundamental human rights principles and practice.

There is no argument about that that still needs to be had. The evidence is in, we're living it all over this planet. Sex and gender blind laws is where we've been. A return to that is to remove all protections for women and girls.

Brava Charlie! An outstanding post. Thank you.
RedDogsBeg · 27/09/2021 14:31

@Ereshkigalangcleg

It does mean that if there is a male in a women's space, that male has self-selected as someone who doesn't care about women's feelings - whether "really trans", or "passing", or not.

Exactly. Decent male people irrespective of gender identity respect women enough to recognise we need privacy and dignity, and to feel safe. The presence of a male in a female only space for me is a hostile, boundary violating act in and of itself.

It is.
MrsOvertonsWindow · 27/09/2021 14:32

That's a powerful article from Brendan O'Neil Wrongsideofhistorymyarse. So many quotable sections but I liked this bit:
he made a terrible moral error and a catastrophic political choice. He chose to align with the reality-denying agitators of the increasingly unhinged identitarian ‘left’ rather than with women, scientific truth and the vast majority of working-class voters, who know that women and men are different. Starmer has made many mistakes over the past two years, but his failure plainly to say ‘No, it is not transphobic to say only women have cervixes’ could prove to be the final nail in his political coffin

It is a moral error - on one hand he wants to run the country while at the same time being frightened by this science denying, boundary breaching and safeguarding children busting ideology. Decent people won't go along with it.

Whatiswrongwithmyknee · 27/09/2021 14:47

Starmer has made many mistakes over the past two years, but his failure plainly to say ‘No, it is not transphobic to say only women have cervixes’ could prove to be the final nail in his political coffin

Indeed. I - I suspect like many others - will not vote for the labour party again until he is not in a position of any power within it. Even if he backtracks and apologies for his misogyny and aggression to women, he has shown his true colours and he is not trustworthy. Labour will never get in whilst he is their leader.

NecessaryScene · 27/09/2021 15:01

It is a moral error - on one hand he wants to run the country while at the same time being frightened by this science denying, boundary breaching and safeguarding children busting ideology.

And if he can't stand up against them, why should we believe he could stand up against any other nonsense?

And he's unable to even articulate how he's got into this position. It's not clear he's even capable of logical reasoning on the subject. In which case, why should we believe he could logically reason on any other issue?

It's demonstrating at least either character or intellectual weakness, and possibly both.

Call me old-fashioned, but I expect a little more from a potential leader.

Lordamighty · 27/09/2021 15:22

The Labour Party are a lost cause as far as protecting women’s rights go. It’s no good just blaming Starmer, I’ve just watched some of their conference.

ButterflyHatched · 27/09/2021 15:44

@PurgatoryOfPotholes

It's so strange though. It only ever seems to happen in online conversations with transphobes, and only when I rise to match the strident tone frequently used in discussion against me. When I (regularly) engage in discussion without disclosing my trans status, nobody has ever accused me of male entitlement. It's like it's being weaponised as a form of bad-faith tone-policing. Wonder why that is.

So what are your datapoints for this? Mumsnet? What other places have you tried this? Twitter?

What about Pistonheads? Kiwifarms?

Could it be that you have a particular way of typing when you 'speak' online to people you perceive as female about philosophical issues you diverge on? And could it be that feminists are extremely qualified to notice that tone change?

It's not a coincidence you're using the word strident right now... Even though I already posted something discussing how it is a word more often used to describe women than men, regardless of the "gender of the writer".

I'm not keen on getting dragged into a definitional battle here, but I'd like to point out that my reasoning for using the term 'strident', which I don't at all consider to be perjorative, is because my online debating style has frequently been described as such by friends of many genders, amongst whom are included people who are, and are not, aware of my trans status.
Whatiswrongwithmyknee · 27/09/2021 15:47

Strident is undisputedly pejorative. If you've been using the wrong word, I think many of us would accept an apology for your inadvertent insulting of us.

Wrongsideofhistorymyarse · 27/09/2021 15:50

'Strident' is a pejorative that is very often used to describe women with opinions, Butterfly. It's a surprise that you weren't aware of the gendered aspect of the insult.

RedDogsBeg · 27/09/2021 15:54

Since MNHQ have deleted the post where we were doubly insulted by being referred to as strident and transphobes in the same sentence it appears they agree with our take Wrongside.

Helleofabore · 27/09/2021 15:57

And yet many, many females easily recognise the pejorative that is the word 'strident' when they see it. Particularly when it is used against them. Along with the other terms you have directly or indirectly used as a generalisation against posters who disagree with you, such as 'transphobes'.

Negative generalisations are not acceptable on this board and get deleted by the moderators.

Sophoclesthefox · 27/09/2021 16:00

I’m going to try that next time I want to compliment someone on here for a post.

“Oh wow, what a great post, you’re so strident!”

Helleofabore · 27/09/2021 16:01

@Sophoclesthefox

I’m going to try that next time I want to compliment someone on here for a post.

“Oh wow, what a great post, you’re so strident!”

Grin
Wrongsideofhistorymyarse · 27/09/2021 16:02

Was calling Mumsnet 'Prosecco Stormfront' also part of your online debating style, Butterfly? Something you use in discussions with your friends of all all genders? That's also a pejorative.

ButterflyHatched · 27/09/2021 16:16

@OldCrone

I'm talking about people experiencing oppression due to the patriarchical enforcement of gender roles, so...absolutely, yes.

So are you saying that your reaction to this was to transition?

My reaction to the patriarchal enforcement of gender roles was to be a feminist and fight against them.

Try to change the world in other words. If I'd tried to change myself instead that would have seemed like admitting defeat without even trying.

@OldCrone: My reaction to the patriarchal enforcement of gender roles was to be a feminist and fight against them.

Mine too! I'm a bisexual woman who was assigned a male gender role at birth by society, identified gender dysphoria as a source of my misery during my childhood and elected to transition, which eased the vast majority of my suffering in my particular case. I didn't transition to satisfy the patriarchy's disapproval of my experiences of gender incongruence - claiming this as a motivation seems hugely counter-intuitive because it disregards the extent to which the patriarchy abuses people who take steps to alter their bodies alongside their modes of gendered expression, meaning they can't be brutalised back into the closet.

I didn't transition to 'straightwash' my sexuality - this is a very strange notion that some people who are critical of trans identities use to try and 'explain' transitioning, and bisexual anyway, so the whole notion is somewhat irrelevant in my case.

I've spoken about awareness of intersecting systems of privilege and oppression before; I'm a trans woman who experiences active institutionalised and personal social misogyny in my daily life, alongside passive exposure to harmful collections of ideas and phenomena that encompass a range of negative attitudes, feelings and actions towards transgender people and transness in general.

You're welcome to believe that transitioning is an inherently misogynistic concept; I think it's potentially one - it's certainly a complex nest of vipers which can betray the misogyny inherent to social attitudes of masculinity and femininity, in the same way that there are complex reasons for why people pursue cosmetic surgery - but I don't believe that 'experiences of misogyny' are what drive people to transition.

I'm trying to change the world. I've been trying for quite a long time.

Wrongsideofhistorymyarse · 27/09/2021 16:29

I'm a bisexual woman who was assigned a male gender role at birth by society

Respectfully, you were not assigned a male gender role at birth. Your sex was observed and noted.

Helleofabore · 27/09/2021 16:30

I didn't transition to 'straightwash' my sexuality - this is a very strange notion that some people who are critical of trans identities use to try and 'explain' transitioning

And yet, there are different clinicians across the world who have independently reported this is very much something that it happening to young transitioners in the current cohort. It is also reported by detransitioners as to the motivation for some of them to have sought treatment.

A cohort that you have not acknowledged is rather different to your own cohort of so long ago.

Why would you doubt the reports of this happening with practitioners and detransitioners who are raising the alarm that this is happening and that it poses significant risk to safeguarding for those young people?

ArabellaScott · 27/09/2021 16:30

@Lordamighty

The Labour Party are a lost cause as far as protecting women’s rights go. It’s no good just blaming Starmer, I’ve just watched some of their conference.
After Emily Thornberry and the Scottish shadow minister (forget his name) on Women's Hour this morning, I think you're completely correct.

The party is moribund.

334bu · 27/09/2021 16:31

I'm a bisexual woman who was assigned a male gender role at birth by society,

I realise you are trying to change the world but could you also write in plain English. The above would seem to mean you were born female and then as an infant forced to behave as if you had been born male.

CuriousaboutSamphire · 27/09/2021 16:36

Oh laws! More word salad.

Could you, for those of us at the back, say that again, more simply?

334bu · 27/09/2021 16:37

Ian Murray Scotland's one and only Labour MP making a fool of himself on radio

Helleofabore · 27/09/2021 16:38

@334bu

Ian Murray Scotland's one and only Labour MP making a fool of himself on radio
now? a second time today? or this morning with EB?
334bu · 27/09/2021 16:40

www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/m00101jn
From 14:10

No just this morning on Woman's Hour with Emma Barnes

RedDogsBeg · 27/09/2021 16:43

@334bu

Ian Murray Scotland's one and only Labour MP making a fool of himself on radio
It was a masterclass.
Helleofabore · 27/09/2021 16:46

Why would you doubt the reports of this happening with practitioners and detransitioners who are raising the alarm that this is happening and that it poses significant risk to safeguarding for those young people?

And to add to this, particularly when for young female transitioners the health risks are higher. And again, I will point out that we are only just learning about the massive increased dementia risk of those females who have hysterectomies at a very young age. And the dementia is being reported as starting very early.

Why on earth would any person advocate for a medical treatment pathway for the sex class that would result in atrophy of organs that then require to be removed and significantly increasing their risk at life limiting and life shortening side effects? When clinicians and researchers are advocating a multiple pathway to treatment that doesn't fit into 'affirming only' so that this current cohort has treatment paths tailored to suit their needs. Not the needs of male transitioners.

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