Labour have committed to single sex spaces

[flumpetto]

Excluding trans

This is a step in the right direction at long last....

www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/keir-starmer-trans-women-labour-b1924832.html

@PurgatoryOfPotholes

Given that you've been thinking about your privilege, has considering your status as someone white, middle-class, able-bodied and affluent made you rethink the way you leveraged Stormfront as an epithet against women of different races, classes, income and varying levels of disability, simply for thinking they are entitled to single-sex showers at the council leisure centre?

Women who have fewer options than you, for whom it might be the closest swimming pool or no swimming at all?

This is a very good question.

The terms of engagement are not on a par here.

I don't mind strident, I love it in fact. I'm pretty bloody strident.

For me it is less about tone and more that the characterisation of women not capitulating as "reactionary" that is off.

@FlyingOink

I think my tone is betraying privilege, and also a degree of entitlement, but that's due to the 'able-bodied, white, middle class, affluent, passing' part of my circumstances rather than any kind of essential expression of male or femaleness.

I'm sorry but that is hilarious. It's like meta-mansplaining. You don't get to decide which privileges you acknowledge and which ones you deny exist, either.

No, and nor does anyone. I can communicate my awareness of them, and how they relate to the matter at hand, which I'm doing to the best of my ability. I appreciate being reminded of my own blind-spots, where relevant. By all means, please point out anything else you consider to be relevant to discussing the provision of same-sex spaces.

So am I supposed to now be telling transwomen, "erm, you're not 'passing' by the way"? For clarity and honesty?

Is that permitted?

Hilarious.
What is it that people say now, I'm not doing your work for you unpaid.

I mean there is the entire consultation on the GRA online, the videos of the following equality committee sessions for starters.

But surely when you turn up to school feminists you have already studied their position properly before and are not just shooting from the hip about regulating women speaking?

That was rhetorical, don't answer.

‘Passing privilege’ is such a bizarre concept. Males are notoriously bad at spotting sex whereas women (and children) are extremely good at it. Transwomen, being male, have the same blind spot. It’s not makeup, hair and clothes. It’s the whole physiology, posture, gait, voice, etc etc

I never understand how transwomen think they pass. Is it because women as socialised not to say anything, coupled with the “freeze and appease” response?

Or is it that the only need to ‘pass’ via male gaze, which has a much lower bar?

Damn, typing that out, the penny’s dropped. They don’t care if we women clock them as female, just that we validate them and the men read them as women. Because we women are only support humans.

I never understand how transwomen think they pass.

For some, it is a reverse of the quote by Upton Sinclair that “It is difficult to get a man to understand something when his salary depends upon his not understanding it”, only for “salary” substitute “erection”.

Additionally, for some, it is not even so much a matter of whether they truly do think they pass, as it is a matter of getting a boner just from writing the words that they do.

Obviously, I’ve no idea about actual real posters to this or any other forum so I am not directing this insight at any individuals.

I never understand how transwomen think they pass.
When I see people claim this I always want to ask what on earth do you think women would do? I have never challenged tw in the ladies or anywhere but not because I didn't notice!

“Passing privilege” is also bizarre in the case of being assumed to be a woman, as passing would mean having your concerns treated as irrelevant and/or offensive.

Passing would therefore never be a “privilege” for a transwoman, so any male who thinks “passing privilege” can be a thing for trans women, does not pass.

Has anyone else ever noticed that women don't have "facial feminisation surgery" or say that they "pass"? If TWAW, that wouldn't be necessary, would it?

Andrew Doyle, the only reason to watch GB News, currently nailing it on air.

@Serenissima21

I never understand how transwomen think they pass. When I see people claim this I always want to ask what on earth do you think women would do? I have never challenged tw in the ladies or anywhere but not because I didn't notice!

3.55 to 4.25

Gosh, Nancy, that was rather tragic, wasn't it? Big bloke in full 'female' costume and drag queen make-up apparently bemused that a shop assistant didn't read him as female. I'd love to know what happened next: did someone take him aside and tell him the truth? Would he have believed them if they did?

@Serenissima21

I never understand how transwomen think they pass. When I see people claim this I always want to ask what on earth do you think women would do? I have never challenged tw in the ladies or anywhere but not because I didn't notice!

Well quite. The last transwoman I encountered was in the toilets of a pub, a heavy-set non-passing obvious male despite the sparkly frock. Toilets in the basement, down a long corridor out of shouting distance of my friends or any help whatsoever. As the transwoman went into a cubicle before me the woman who had just come out and I exchanged a glance. She was still fixing her hair and make up when I came out and we left together after I’d washed my hands. The transwoman would have been completely unaware of our significant discomfort and the fact this complete stranger had stayed on to make sure I was OK.

@Shedbuilder

Gosh, Nancy, that was rather tragic, wasn't it? Big bloke in full 'female' costume and drag queen make-up apparently bemused that a shop assistant didn't read him as female. I'd love to know what happened next: did someone take him aside and tell him the truth? Would he have believed them if they did?

I agree. I have no doubt that that individual truly believed they were indistinguishable from women. I think KJK was spot on here (I don't always agree with everything she says). She said similar on the triggernometry episode - men see breasts and lipstick and read female (including of themselves, if that is their aim).

@Fallingirl

“Passing privilege” is also bizarre in the case of being assumed to be a woman, as passing would mean having your concerns treated as irrelevant and/or offensive.

Passing would therefore never be a “privilege” for a transwoman, so any male who thinks “passing privilege” can be a thing for trans women, does not pass.

It does. This is my daily experience at work. They are intersecting systems of oppression and privilege.

No, and nor does anyone. I can communicate my awareness of them, and how they relate to the matter at hand, which I'm doing to the best of my ability. I appreciate being reminded of my own blind-spots, where relevant. By all means, please point out anything else you consider to be relevant to discussing the provision of same-sex spaces.

You were called out on your tone and you have self-diagnosed. Others may disagree with your self-analysis. You personally believe that your tone betrays privilege but you have effectively decided to pick and choose which parts of that privilege you want to acknowledge and which you have dismissed.

Don't think I didn't notice the admonishment at the end. I find it ironic you're hinting I should stay on topic when you have been rather indulged.

They are intersecting systems of oppression and privilege.
Indeed.

You never responded about the TSA and how awful it was to scan people. What was the point there exactly?

Anyone who frames being seen as a woman or girl in society as a privilege is either-

Totally unaware of the entire global historical history of the oppression of women, and totally ignorant of the many issues we face all the time here in the UK. From the everyday to the fucking terrifying and worse. How so many men even 'nice' ones don't really see us as full people. Etc etc

Or

Has the same attitude as the more toxic type of MRA.

Framing women and girls as privileged is insulting and utterly tone deaf.

TSA scan people?

I saw a mention of ai but didn't find the context. Was that the suggestion? If so I have thoughts

I think a lot of this stuff about passing can be simultaneously true: that a number of trans women are widely read as female in their daily life, such that they do experience daily misogyny (for much of this, you only need to be read as female by men, after all), and also that a number of TW don't pass as well as they think they do because the women who encounter them give no indication of clocking, since to do so sits somewhere between unkind, unnecessary, and potentially criminal. I get that 'privilege' is a contentious word here as it's been repeatedly employed to suggest that natal women are always privileged in relation to trans women and I do think this is bollocks, but at the same time I can well believe it is easier if you are able to fly under the radar rather than be read as trans.

However... at a policy level, I don't think we can or should discriminate between trans women who pass and trans women who don't pass. Even if we accept that there are trans women, perhaps including Butterfly, who pass always, even when among hypervigilant women and would therefore cause no consternation in a women's rape trauma recovery group, we don't (as I understand it) have a lawful mechanism for allowing these women in but keeping out the Alex Drummonds of the world: trans women who do not pass and do not claim to pass, but who we still can't bar on the basis of being actually abusive as per Karen White or the Canadian with the grotesque waxing demands. This is a real world problem and handwringing on the Internet won't fix it; natal women must be able to use the single sex exemptions as provided by the EA (as I believe/hope Starmer has affirmed...).
I don't agree that the existence of trans men, non-binary people, people with DSDs and butch women significantly muddies the waters. I would support the inclusion of female-bodied NB people, and women with DSD conditions, in women's single sex spaces; I think butch women are read as men less frequently than is claimed in these arguments (an accidental "sir" followed by a swift apology, not unusual, but a protracted belief that a butch woman is male, much less common) and fundamentally that is about incorrectly identifying a person as male rather than correctly identifying a person as male so the implications are very different.

@NellWilsonsWhiteHair

I think a lot of this stuff about passing can be simultaneously true: that a number of trans women are widely read as female in their daily life, such that they do experience daily misogyny (for much of this, you only need to be read as female by men, after all), and also that a number of TW don't pass as well as they think they do because the women who encounter them give no indication of clocking, since to do so sits somewhere between unkind, unnecessary, and potentially criminal. I get that 'privilege' is a contentious word here as it's been repeatedly employed to suggest that natal women are always privileged in relation to trans women and I do think this is bollocks, but at the same time I can well believe it is easier if you are able to fly under the radar rather than be read as trans.

However... at a policy level, I don't think we can or should discriminate between trans women who pass and trans women who don't pass. Even if we accept that there are trans women, perhaps including Butterfly, who pass always, even when among hypervigilant women and would therefore cause no consternation in a women's rape trauma recovery group, we don't (as I understand it) have a lawful mechanism for allowing these women in but keeping out the Alex Drummonds of the world: trans women who do not pass and do not claim to pass, but who we still can't bar on the basis of being actually abusive as per Karen White or the Canadian with the grotesque waxing demands. This is a real world problem and handwringing on the Internet won't fix it; natal women must be able to use the single sex exemptions as provided by the EA (as I believe/hope Starmer has affirmed...).
I don't agree that the existence of trans men, non-binary people, people with DSDs and butch women significantly muddies the waters. I would support the inclusion of female-bodied NB people, and women with DSD conditions, in women's single sex spaces; I think butch women are read as men less frequently than is claimed in these arguments (an accidental "sir" followed by a swift apology, not unusual, but a protracted belief that a butch woman is male, much less common) and fundamentally that is about incorrectly identifying a person as male rather than correctly identifying a person as male so the implications are very different.

Bloody brilliant explanation of the mess.

Which no doubt Butterfly will 'yeah but' Butterfly's way right past.

But still correct.

The other issue with passing being pushed by the trans woman community as a massive privilege and something that is the ultimate aim. And that without it well. You're treated unfairly etc. In essence. Life is just better and fairer and brilliant if you pass. If you don't well. What a shame.

Is that the tw who have a face that looks more female than male in terms of the main indicators.

1. Have usually spent £££ on all sorts of plastic surgery. And gone through the time pain recovery that are involved and taken any associated risks.

1. While in pictures the effect can be convincing. With lighting filters touch ups loads of makeup and posed in certain ways. In real life there are thousands of other things across a wide range of areas. That would also need to be done totally naturally at all times in public. Gait, speech patterns, ways of standing walking running sitting. Behaviour that is indistinguishable from a woman socialised from birth in our society. Really subtle stuff. And also not subtle stuff. Eg the recognition women often give each other. It's momentary. Most don't realise we do it. The microsecond of eye contact with another woman in a meeting when the men are being... Whatever. The tiny look and eye movement to say I think he's trouble on the tube at night. The answering slight eyebrow movement, miniscule nod or similar to say yes clocked it too. Or the glance at him and the way that the glance back says yes. Or, thanks. I recently found out men don't even NOTICE this! How do those who pass learn it? And then of course height feet hands and so on. Oh and. As seen on telly and in various statements. The not in anger or frustration or through over confidence. Not saying or doing thinks that are just totally male standard..

So. Most can't afford all the surgery. And even with it. To assume that if a face in a certain pose in apic means passing full stop? Nah.

Also. Passing means people being misled.

That's not good.

And given the aims apparently are to increase general acceptance etc of trans people. It's irrelevant. And counter productive. Because to achieve the aims society in general needs to become more accepting of different ways people present etc. Especially men.

But that's never ever seen as the direction to go is it.

Because getting men to be more accepting of men who are not 'manly'. Is too tricky. Easier to steamroller women.

Because getting men to be more accepting of men who are not 'manly'. Is too tricky. Easier to steamroller women.

Hence the anger and abuse when they hear women say 'No'.

I hate the expression “passing”.

Women don’t all look the same. So how can you pass? I’m masculine looking in the sense I have a strong jaw line. But I have a cervix - and I know this because when I went for a smear the nurse told me it was tilted and bloody hard to find. So what does “pass” mean? Long hair? Big breasts? Long let’s? Big lips? Long eyelashes? Blah blah