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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Labour have committed to single sex spaces

999 replies

flumpetto · 22/09/2021 14:00

Excluding trans

This is a step in the right direction at long last....

www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/keir-starmer-trans-women-labour-b1924832.html

OP posts:
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12
ArabellaScott · 24/09/2021 14:16

You can't use a third space, Butterfly? But from what I understand plenty of women are happy to use mixed sex spaces. So there should be no issue with a mixed space for males, females and non-binary people - who so often seem to be forgotten in this discussion. I'd have thought for that reason alone a third mixed sex space would be enthusiastically supported.

In any case, it is fact that some women can't use a space that is mixed sex.

(This is really not all about toilets, btw. Hospital wards, changing rooms, prisons and dormitories all spring to mind)

Women who need a single sex space (including those who have experienced trauma at the hands of males, some religious women and various others) should therefore be afforded a third space. All those happy to use mixed sex space can use that, and we can use the 'female only' space. Everyone will surely then be happy.

Jaysmith71 · 24/09/2021 14:17

No transdar necessary, just a pair of eyes and an absence Emporer's New Clothes syndrome.

It is tranparently glaringly obvious in all but a tiny handful of cases.

Whatiswrongwithmyknee · 24/09/2021 14:17

Anyway, your concerns are real, and they're numerous, and they're worthy, and need to be answered with real, helpful policy. Policy that, through various quirks of fate, also directly benefits a small number of people like me - but even if it didn't, the principle still stands.

Largely I don't think there is any disagreement about this aim. But the current direction of travel actually only benefits the small number of people like you and it does so at the expense of a large number of women. This is not a quirk of fate, this is the intentioned enactment of male privilege. What we are asking for is something that addresses all concerns and to do that you need to recognise female oppression.

I would really be interested to hear your thoughts on some important concerns about gender ideology:

  1. Now we have no words to describe an XX person, how will we track whether XX people continue to be under-represented in STEM subjects, paid less, left to do most do most of the childcare, murdered at massively greater rate by their partners, silenced in a school setting, killed more frequently in car crashes as crash test dummies are modelled on an XY body etc. Come to think of it, how will we also know what discrimination trans people experience as their experiences will be lumped in with others who have the same identity?
  1. Given that there is always residual male physical advantage, does it bother you that XX sports are set to become trans sports?
  1. How we will make sure XX and XY people get the healthcare which they actually need without expecting people to know exactly what body parts they have (there are threads which demonstrate that many older teenage girls have no idea they are a 'cervix-haver').
  1. If we accepted your wish to have new concepts of 'femaleness' and 'maleness', are we not setting up a situation which will leave many people feeling othered? What gender critical people are doing is suggesting that we dismantle the stereotypes around gender and let people just be themselves. What you are suggesting is reinforcing a very rigid binary conceptualisation of femaleness/ maleness. This will leave many more people sitting outside of those rigid boxes. If identity is a spectrum, why are you trying to obliterate the spectrum? What do you find so threatening about people suggesting that we (continue) to see sex as male or female and we detach (for those people who have had experiences which attach them) the concept of one's identity from one's sex. A man can then wear what he likes, dress how he likes, express himself how he likes, feel free to make career choices that actually suit him - and so can women. What's changed BTW which is making women so scared is that we had a generally accepted TWATW position. Whilst I don't understand why people link their body with their identity to the degree that you need to to be trans, I don't expect to understand everything other people do and think so no problem. But when we say TWAW and lose, therefore, all ability to have the sex-segregated spaces (which were NOT set up in response to manage identity issues) and to further notice female oppression (and male as ideas that men have to be strong, provide for their family, don't cry, are damaging for men too).

It's clear that despite the large number of posters in this place who have privately agreed with me, attempting to have public discussions that match the content of private ones is just opening me up to abuse from people who clearly don't want to address them.

You are not the only person on this thread who feels abused. I've found your responses abusive too. Indeed I find the idea that because I have a vagina, I automatically identify in the same/ similar ways as other people who have vaginas hugely abusive and offensive. Not least because that sort of thinking was the foundation for many ills doled out to women in the past and present. You've been dismissive of all other views and not really listened to anything anyone is saying. These conversations will not move forward if the 'be kind' message is brought out as some kind of trump card. Each 'side' could equally bring out the trump card so that gets us no-where at all. I think we need more adult conversations TBH.

Helleofabore · 24/09/2021 14:19

We are going to have to find a more elegant way of defining maleness and femaleness as presented and experienced within the world.

Ok. Tell you what, you come up as a community with new words to define the way you wish to present that works with your sex in reality. I am quite happy to accept the centuries old definitions of the words 'female' 'male' 'woman' and 'man'.

This is not a issue that women should have to be fighting for. To protect their language from being irreversibly changed to be repurposed.

Even the transfinder general with flawless laser-sharp vision will not be able to tell on visual inspection if a person is trans or not, and certainly not while waiting in line for the loo.

Again with the language.

And are you stating that a transitioned male will simply continue to ignore the needs of women that have been stated clearly now? That in fact, few transitioned males will take heed of this, will not sort out alternative arrangements and therefore females require a person on the toilet entrance to check sex?

That mature males cannot understand that the needs of females should be respected?

Well.... that is a very interesting perspective!

Helleofabore · 24/09/2021 14:22

What changed? Is it simply that trans people are no longer meek, timid outliers and social outcasts asking to be let into the sisterhood so they can quietly cower in the corner - is the issue one of entitlement and demands?

Has the nature of trans people fundamentally changed and you feel you can no longer trust anyone? If so, what was it that changed? Do you feel that you changed - you consciously altered your stance - or that your stance is actually the same, and it's just that statistical weightings mean the majority of those you encounter don't meet it?

Really? With the tone of your posts, you ask this?

InvisibleDragon · 24/09/2021 14:24

This is from the judicial review about trans women in the female prison estate:
[https://www.bailii.org/cgi-bin/format.cgi?doc=/ew/cases/EWHC/Admin/2021/1746.html&query=(4198/2019]
The most recent data published by the Defendant show that of 163 transgender prisoners, 81 have convictions for sexual offences, and 76 of those prisoners were held in the male estate at the time when the data were collected (shortly before the Care and Management Policy came into effect). That shows a prevalence of sexual offending by the known transgender prison population of over 50% compared to a prevalence of around 18% in male prisons generally and around 4% in female prisons generally. A history of sexual offending is an indicator of risk of future sexual offending; and women are more likely than men to be the victims of sexual offending. The evidence therefore supports the existence of a prejudicial effect on women if transgender prisoners in the male estate are transferred into the female estate.

So among the prison population, people who identify as trans women are far more likely to have convictions for sexual offences than either cis women or cis men. And note that this is only prisoners with no GRC - trans women prisoners with a GRC are simply recorded as women so there is no way to assess their risk history.

Those statistics really changed my mind. They suggest that in certain situations predatory men are using a trans identity as a way to access potential victims, push boundaries (or just get access to special privileges). That concerns me a lot, particularly as women in prison are extremely vulnerable - there was a recent study that found something like 55% of female prisoners have suffered a serious head injury as a result of domestic violence. So the idea that an attempt to be kind and inclusive by allowing gender self-ID in prisons has resulted in these vulner women being housed with - and assaulted by - violent sex offenders is extremely upsetting.

Similarly, the Wi Spa incident in California really clearly demonstrated how self-ID makes laws against indecent exposure and voyeurism unenforceable. A convicted sex offender exposed themselves to women and children. They have now been arrested and charged. But because California has total self-ID, because they say that they are a trans woman they are legally indistinguishable from any other woman who was using the spa that day.

Self-ID that doesn't make a distinction between sex and gender identity by definition removes protection for women and children from predatory men. That's very scary.

This is where discussions about trans women passing / femininity come in I think. In the past, if there was a male bodied person in a women's single-sex space, women were able to ask them to leave (with some consideration given to trans women who were presenting in a feminine way and therefore seen as trying to pass). Now, if that person says "I identity as a woman," women who are uncomfortable are told they are transphobic. This is what happened at the Wi Spa.

I think a lot of the loudest discussions about self-ID happen between people who genuinely don't see the unintended consequences for vulnerable women. It's not pleasant to think about the harm people cause each other and it's nice to assume that because we want to be kind that everyone does. If you don't have personal experience of predatory behaviours, or haven't worked with either victims or perpetrators of serious violence, it can be easy to dismiss these fears as scaremongering or exaggerated - but doing that and not properly addressing women's concerns doesn't make the problem go away. It just makes it harder to protect vulnerable people who already struggle to make their needs heard.

ArabellaScott · 24/09/2021 14:24

@RedDogsBeg

I'd rephrase: if you still want to encroach on women's spaces even after they've demonstrated there are harms, and you're not going to accept their no - be honest about it.

Absolutely.

All I hear is I've decided I'm a woman, I've chosen that path, you women have to accept and validate my choice because I say so, you have to believe I am a woman because I say so, you have to stop objecting to me being in your single sex spaces because I say so, you have to be welcoming and submissive because I say so, you have to just put up and shut up about your fear, discomfort, erosion of privacy and safety, because I say so and any woman who actually can't use those spaces and services because of me and others like me - tough

The thing is that nobody can force anyone else to agree with them or accept their beliefs. It's not possible. You can force, threaten or coerce people to accept them, but it's not freely held then its meaningless.

A woman can be forced to chant 'TWAW'; it doesn't mean she really believes it. People can refuse to acknowledge the feelings, thoughts and desires of women; it doesn't mean that women stop having those thoughts, feelings and desires.

In the end, no matter how you try to achieve it, the subjugation of women just won't stick.

' we still possess one power, and we must defend it with all our strength for it is the last — the power to refuse our consent.” '

  • Primo Levi, seeing as that Nazi reference is still echoing in the air, somewhat
RedDogsBeg · 24/09/2021 14:26

You are not the only person on this thread who feels abused. I've found your responses abusive too

Not only abusive but incredibly offensive. As I said earlier Butterfly was never here to listen only to lecture and demand obsequience.

Whatiswrongwithmyknee · 24/09/2021 14:28

Very true invisible dragon and in terms of predatory behaviour, research has suggested that 97% of UK women have been sexually harassed. So women are clearly better placed to comment on this issue than Kier Starmer

www.openaccessgovernment.org/97-of-women-in-the-uk/105940/

Jaysmith71 · 24/09/2021 14:34

So you come home and find me on your sofa. I say I've decided I should live in your house, or as we must now call it, our house.

You object. I am offended by your tone. I explain to you that capitalistic concepts of private ownership are passe, and if you think you have some objection to our shared accomodation then you must present me with some hard factual evidence.

You continue to object. I call this persecution because you persisently attack me when I am no threat to you. I will not cross over to your side of the bed and only want access to the bathroom when you're in there because I need to pee.

You are now getting hysterical. I contend this is the kind of bigoted prejudice house-sharers have had to put up with for centuries. Now make me a cup of tea. Two sugars.

RedDogsBeg · 24/09/2021 14:38

It all goes back to the image in Cerebelle's post of yesterday at 20.12 ArabellaScott whereby the person posting the tweet considered it an act of violence that even when someone got their pronouns right they could see in the persons eyes that they still read them as male, once again nothing is ever enough. People have to be forced to believe the lie and show clearly they believe the lie.

Authoritarian and totalitarian much? Remind me again who are the Nazis? Who are the ones demanding thought, belief, speech and action control?

AllTheUsernamesAreAlreadyTaken · 24/09/2021 14:39

I wouldn’t get excited.
Single sex spaces for females would include trans women.
Typical non-sensical rubbish from Labour

twitter.com/JeanHatchet/status/1441280357781762059?s=20

RedDogsBeg · 24/09/2021 14:43

[quote AllTheUsernamesAreAlreadyTaken]I wouldn’t get excited.
Single sex spaces for females would include trans women.
Typical non-sensical rubbish from Labour

twitter.com/JeanHatchet/status/1441280357781762059?s=20[/quote]
I wasn't, I knew it would be the typical lawyerly fudge from a man whose backside must be full of splinters from the fence he is sitting on.

AllTheUsernamesAreAlreadyTaken · 24/09/2021 14:44

More fool me. I actually had a little stomach flip at the headline

CharlieParley · 24/09/2021 14:54

Either: Trans women are inherently dangerous predators with transparent psychological attributes of maleness, or: there are no psychological attributes of maleness because gender isn't real, and all behaviours are constructed. Which is it? These can't both be true.

We haven't claimed either of those things. We use a structural analysis of male violence here coupled with a class-based analysis.

The former says that there are structural reasons for why female people are victimised in this way by male people in our society, based on the inequality of the sexes.

The latter posits that the male sex class as a whole is a risk to the female sex class as a whole. We cannot tell which individual male will be a predator, but what we can tell is that a member of the male sex class is 100 times more likely to be a sexual threat to a member of the female sex class than another female. We have safeguarding measures in place to account for this. And precisely because we cannot tell which individual male will be a predator, we apply these safeguarding measures indiscriminately to all males above a certain age (typically before puberty sets in).

This does not equate to saying that every male human is inherently a predator. We're not making that fallacy of division in any way. We never have. What we are pointing out is that because there is no way for us to know which males are predators, there is no way to let any males in without also letting some predators in.

Safeguarding principles in this situation must therefore be applied to the whole group that represents a threat, even if not all parts of the whole are a threat.

We do this with all adults working with children or vulnerable people. I had to get a criminal records check when I joined a community interpretation service, because I would be privy to a) confidential information and b) work with vulnerable people or people in vulnerable situations. I did it gladly and at no point did I take that request as a slight on my character. And I will do the same every single time I'm asked.

The reason why male transgender people are affected by those safeguarding measures is not because they are "inherently dangerous predators" and it is not because they identify as trans. It's because they are members of the male sex class and we apply these safeguarding measures to all members of the group.

If we are talking about learned socialisation, then I profoundly agree; toxic behaviours imprinted on people by the patriarchy are indeed astonishingly shitty. However, if I express the experience of having been victim to them, I'm appropriating womanhood and they can't possibly be real - despite them demonstrably being realities that occur. Are experiences only real if the brain that is experiencing them is pink, or has the magical genetic gender essence? Do I even have the magical genetic gender essence? It was repeatedly implied by clinicians that they suspected I had PAIS due to the low intensity of pubertal changes I'd presented with. I never got myself tested, as it didn't seem relevant, but there's a not insignificant chance that my magical Genetic Gender Essence field is compromised.

I don't believe in pink brains or gendered souls or a "magical genetic gender essence". I surmise though that you have been a vixtim of "toxic behaviours imprinted on people by the patriarchy" in three distinct ways: in how others related to you as a gender-non-conforming male child and teenager, in how you related to yourself in your obvious non-compliance to the norms and expectations our society imposes on males, and in how people related to you after your transition because they perceived you to be a woman.

I believe these experiences are real. I believe they are damaging. I don't believe you are "appropriating womanhood" if you say you experience sexism or misogyny because people perceive you to be a woman. However, if you equated your inability to have children to infertility in women, that is an appropriation. (I understand that some remarks can have a much bigger impact than one might expect and that you did not intend the hurt it caused. I'm simply using this example to illustrate what I see as appropriation.)

It is appropriation when you equate your experiences to those only female people can experience because of their female biology. It is appropriation when you equate your socialisation, undoubtedly harmful to a child like you, to our socialisation. And the reason for that is best explained in response to the below:

Stereotyped gender conformance behaviours are problematic reinforcements of patriarchal oppression imposed on women to silence and control them, apart from when trans women defy gatekeeping and don't exhibit them, at which point they're exhibiting inherent markers of maleness that show they aren't 'really' trans. What IS a real trans person? What's the diagnostic criteria? Does it involve stereotyped behaviours?

Do you understand the different effect of gender on male and female people? Do you understand the difference in purpose? If you are here to educate yourself, then please think about the following statement:

In a patriarchal society, sex is the reason why female people are oppressed and gender is a tool of that oppression.

Let me explain why we say this: most if not all of the sex stereotypes and sex role stereotypes associated with the female sex come in a binary, that is a hierarchical pair, of which the stereotypes coded masculine and associated with the male sex are denoted as superior and those stereotypes coded feminine and associated with the female sex are denoted inferior. What this means for our lives is that we lose either way - we lose when we conform to those feminine stereotypes and we lose when we don't conform to them. We lose different things, it's true, but we lose nonetheless. What we gain if we conform is often of limited benefit and the punishment for not conforming can outweigh the benefits of doing so too.

Most of us here know this because we have tried both, which is why we have such a profoundly negative reaction to any attempts to enshrine the doctrine of gender identity in law.

The international treaty devoted solely to women's sex-based rights, the Convention on the Elimination of All Forms of Discrimination Against Women or CEDAW, recognises the damage that sex stereotypes and sex role stereotypes do to the female sex and therefore calls on all member states to work to eradicate them. That would not be the case if stereotypes were beneficial to us.

They don't help with male violence either. Violent males attack gender-conforming women as much as gender-non-conforming ones. That's because of our sex. (And while the rates of male-on-male violence have reduced in recent years, the rates of male-on-female violence continue to rise.)

They don't even help with the reality of our female biology, and all of the challenges it brings. We are dealing with a whole range of issues - many of which are again made harder to deal with because of the stereotypes associated with them.

Back to apart from when trans women defy gatekeeping and don't exhibit them, at which point they're exhibiting inherent markers of maleness that show they aren't 'really' trans. What IS a real trans person? What's the diagnostic criteria? Does it involve stereotyped behaviours?

I'm not interested in what makes a "real trans person". It makes no difference to me if I lose female-only provisions because a male person is a "real trans person" or not. All that matters is that a provision I need to be female-only is now mixed-sex.

There is only one reason why we bring up the fact that increasingly the males who seek access to female-only provisions are not even trying to pass: because we are told that we don't even know if a male who passes as a woman is using that provision, that they have always used them and that we should therefore stop objecting to the presence of all male transgender people. Which, of course, includes the obvious males, indistinguishable from any other males, who proclaim they are women by their very presence in a female-only space.

As for passing males, yes, some undoubtedly do for many. But like other survivors of male violence, I am hypervigilant and while I would never say that I can always tell, I will say that I often read males as male even when other women do not. And those of us who have involuntary trauma responses in the presence of males try to avoid being triggered, which is not only frightening and unpleasant but harmful to our wellbeing. We therefore need female-only provisions free from all males, even those who think they pass.

And no, I would never say anything at all to males in female-only spaces, unless their presence is distressing another woman or girl in that space. If it's just me I simply leave, asap.

Either: you can always tell, I have unmistakeable physical male attributes that make women inherently uncomfortable and which people were always secretly cowering in fear from, and everyone I've ever met and interacted with including people who have by default included me in explicitly trans-hostile private spaces while sharing their horrendous jokes and memes in good confidence has just been playing along; or you can't always tell, I'm passing invisibly and thus a duplicitous infiltrator who is harming women by making them feel unsafe ?retroactively? if I later out myself. Which reality is it? These can't exist simultaneously.

Why not? Women are not a monolith. We have diverse experiences. You may pass for some, even most, and not for others. I feel wholly comfortable in the presence of some male transgender people and not others. I may feel very uncomfortable and never show it, I may feel a little uncomfortable and bring it up. That depends entirely on the situation.

There are a limited number of circumstances where I would indeed feel betrayed finding out that someone was not who they professed to be. I don't think that is unusual. Afterwards, I'll avoid, either the place or the person, but I would be unlikely to say anything at all.

QueenPeary · 24/09/2021 15:00

Brava Charley

QueenPeary · 24/09/2021 15:01

oops Charlie! Was getting mixed up with your Parley :)

ButterflyHatched · 24/09/2021 15:02

@MrsOvertonsWindow

Just reminding posters on here that Butterfly earlier commented : "...I do think that there are undercurrents amongst some strains of gc feminism that can skew heavily authoritarian and unsavoury unless watched and carefully regulated, and there have unfortunately been some well documented incidents of this happening.... "

Not sure that I'd "innocently" pop onto a trans focussed internet site and make a similar comment Confused . When someone shows you who they are and all that, it's worth believing them

Honestly? Maybe you should. Just don't, for god's sake, mention you came from here, so that there's some vague chance of a useful discussion happening. You'll still get screamed at, but the language won't be quite so toxic.

I am deeply, deeply afraid of and horrified by the rising current of axiomatic, authoritarian thinking within 4th wave feminism that bulldozes all attempts at nuance and discussion and frequently frames the holders of opposing or even vaguely challenging viewpoints as irreconcilable, irredeemable enemies that must be destroyed at all costs. I didn't like it when it happened during the tumblr Gender Wars, I didn't like it during the Gender Renaissance, and I still don't like it now.

I've been accused of being the four-letter t word (You'll notice I've never used that word here; I'm aware people hate it and don't identify with it) for identifying the legacy of toxic elements of male socialisation and privilege as a source of pain both for and from myself, and others. I've been told I'm being regressive for suggesting that maybe, as trans women, we ought to try and minimise harm by addressing the expression of these behaviours in our interactions with others. I've been told multiple times that I'm a traitor to 'real' trans people; that my suggesting people might want to try embarking upon the 'doing' part of the journey that is gender before demanding others telepathically recognise them and accept the baggage of their socialisation is inherently denying their mystically held inner truth.

These are all things that have happened at the hands of fellow trans activists, and they honestly make me really quite afraid that the message of innocent open and uncritical acceptance we started with has travelled a road that has come to abandon sense and reason in pursuit of an unattainable ideological purity that is impossible to actually engage with in real terms.

I don't think this is an inherent ideological problem with 4th wave feminism - it's been invaluable in helping me unpack my own experiences of gender that never quite added up under the Old Regime - but it is absolutely one of execution. By way of a pithy summary: assholes got hold of it, missed the point, and now everything's a mess and everyone is shouting all the time.

So yes, would not necessarily recommend - it isn't a fight you need to take part in, and it'd just open you up to hurt. But it's something we're certainly trying to address in trans circles, in a way that doesn't just come across as 'damn kids, get off my lawn'.

teawamutu · 24/09/2021 15:07

You do like five paragraphs instead of a simple answer, don't you?

What is your solution to the problem, when women say no to males in female spaces and you don't want a third space?

Artichokeleaves · 24/09/2021 15:14

For goodness sake.

Some female people cannot use mixed sex spaces. They can't.

Excluding them and just expecting them to give up on resources, services and access is obviously not ok. Excluding female people from female spaces so male people can use them is not a sane solution.

This is not some form of ideological purity, this is just a basic practical major problem!

334bu · 24/09/2021 15:19

What,is the solution to male violence against women which is just as prevalent amongst males who identify as women as any other subset of the.male,sex?

Artichokeleaves · 24/09/2021 15:19

Since we cannot force women to give up their faiths, change their cultures and magically cure them of their disabilities, memories and traumatic experiences,

and since they cannot use mixed sex spaces

and since you say any additional spaces are unacceptable

what compromise would you suggest female people make in this, that does not involve just excluding all inconveniently disadvantaged females from female spaces?

Whatiswrongwithmyknee · 24/09/2021 15:25

Butterfly I think we really do need you to answer some of the questions above. If you want TW accepted AW then these are things we need to discuss.

another question - do you think there is a context which makes 4th wave feminism get as bolshy as you say there are? History shows us that when the powerful silence, the silenced have to shout.

Wrongsideofhistorymyarse · 24/09/2021 15:31

Butterfly why Mumsnet in particular?

Helleofabore · 24/09/2021 15:32

that bulldozes all attempts at nuance and discussion and frequently frames the holders of opposing or even vaguely challenging viewpoints as irreconcilable, irredeemable enemies that must be destroyed at all costs.

I believe some of us probably feel that we have witnessed seeing a live demonstration of this on this board over the past day or so from you.

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