Times generation gap article

[Pudmyboy]

Sorry I can't do share tokens..in the Sunday Times, article 'Mind the generation gap..' about generational differences, there was this delight:
Cadi, who works in healthcare, agreed: “Recently we were updating some internet pages and one of them was to do with maternity leave and we updated the pronouns from she and her to they/them, just to be more inclusive. I think it’s definitely a positive ... I can’t see how it would affect anyone negatively.” But she had trouble convincing her parents. “I’ve got very liberal parents, but even they were against it, but they took some time to sort of realise what it was
Exclude to include...I despair!

It’s not inclusive though. It’s exclusive and only a small minority genuinely want this (bandwagon jumpers would be queueing outside the pet shops if you said it was the thing to torture small puppies)

Here:

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/5f76e3cc-18af-11ec-a4b1-45d6202ceafe?shareToken=9c3afe44bb14c5e39e08ab4ff391fbd9

Well I do think that maternity leave as a term is outdated and should be called parental leave especially since there is shared parental leave and we should be encouraging men to take it instead of kowtowing to the socialisation that only the mother can be home with a baby on leave.

But switching pronouns to they/them when you still use the term maternity leave is ridiculous.

Wow. I wonder how Cadi will feel in the future when their maternity leave is blighted by finding themselves redundant for reasons that they will probably no longer even possess the language to articulate.

Wheras I think maternity leave is essential for the recovery of the mother and very often starts before the birth due to pregnancy complications or even just the practicality of certain jobs in the last few weeks and I think it should be ring fenced at a high rate of pay and then followed by parental leave of year which should be shared.

They will be busy with whatever batshittery the next gen comes up with.

@PlanDeRaccordement

Well I do think that maternity leave as a term is outdated and should be called parental leave especially since there is shared parental leave and we should be encouraging men to take it instead of kowtowing to the socialisation that only the mother can be home with a baby on leave.

But switching pronouns to they/them when you still use the term maternity leave is ridiculous.

Except that maternity leave recognises that MOTHERS need time to recover and heal after giving birth- fathers can’t do that for them. Except that MOTHERS need time to establish breastfeeding and nourish a child with breast milk for ideally a least a few months-fathers can’t do that. Sure, fathers can feed a baby form a bottle, but if we do not recognise that mothers need time away from work ( called maternity leave) to stand the best chance of pulling off that stunt called breastfeeding, the already poor rates of breastfeeding will get lower. Be careful, if you allow mothers to be interchangeable with fathers by the all encompassing “parenteral leave” you will find over time MOTHERS rights to heal properly, manage breastfeeding etc get eroded . No maternity leave is not the same as parenteral leave- parenteral leave just recognises that the MOTHERS’s partner can be male or female. As it stands right now fathers cannot gestate or breastfeed another small human being

Well I was definitely on matetnity leave not paternity leave. It wasn't my partner so poorly he was counting down the days until he could legally start his leave. It was also me, the mother who was made redundant on maternity leave. I think after everything I have been through, I am allowed to choose my own labels. Mother, maternity, WOMAN.

In the UK, women must take a minimum of 2 weeks maternity leave from employment following birth. That recognises the impact of birth on her body and means companies cannot pressure a woman to take no leave.

I agree paternity/adoption/fostering leave could be renamed parental leave without any fuss especially since the partner of a pregnant woman won't always be a man. Maternity leave is important to name though since it must take account of the needs of the woman who has gone through birth.

@PlanDeRaccordement

Well I do think that maternity leave as a term is outdated and should be called parental leave especially since there is shared parental leave and we should be encouraging men to take it instead of kowtowing to the socialisation that only the mother can be home with a baby on leave.

But switching pronouns to they/them when you still use the term maternity leave is ridiculous.

I wonder if you ever had maternity leave after giving birth to a baby. And then spent the next few months breastfeeding the baby at all hours of the day. Maternity is for mothers only and should be at least six months at full pay, with a job for the mother in question to come back to. Being a mother is not the same as just being a parent and until society recognizes and appreciates this, women will always be second best. Anything else is just forcing mothers into the stranglehold of men centered society.

My husband took his full entitlement of shared leave after I went back after 3 months. Whilst maternity is not actually 6 months at full pay, this was a life saver for us. I have no issue with the term parental leave (in addition to and not replacing maternity leave) and I think the world would be a better place if more men took a portion of it.

@PaleGreenGhost

Wow. I wonder how Cadi will feel in the future when their maternity leave is blighted by finding themselves redundant for reasons that they will probably no longer even possess the language to articulate.

Why on earth would inclusive pronouns result in Cadi being made redundant?

Because it hides the sex of the person who is taking maternity leave is always, always female. And then once taken maternity leave finds her career sidelined. And the easy option to make redundant, for a fabricated reason because an employer knows full well that it is illegal to fire someone for her biological sex.

Cadi will one day experience this, sadly. And it is really difficult to fight it when you have to talk about the group of people that have or might take maternity leave and will need specific healthcare around the fact these group of people might or have taken maternity leave. Sometimes sex matters and the fact sex matters should not always be seen as a negative thing.

I know there are trends within generations but I do hate it when people act like all under 40s afree with Cadi and co. I'm 29. I bought into the "inclusive/twaw" stuff until about 25 and then saw how damaging it was becoming. Women cannot have our existence whitewashed with "neutral" language that hides reality. If we can't define ourselves, how can we defend our rights? And that is an argument I recently had to make to a woman in her 40s (who did not have to suffer the indignity of being called a "birthing person" or "menstruator" etc when she was having children).

Why on earth would inclusive pronouns result in Cadi being made redundant?

You’re missing the point. Discrimination against mothers happens anyway, “inclusive” language or not. The “inclusive” language stops women organising about and even talking about maternity discrimination and other instances of systemic sexism that are directed at women because we’re female.

Ffs that’s so exhausting to type, because so damn obvious. That’s one of the ways it works. Make people keep stating the obvious over and over so they can’t get anything done. Start union meetings with a pronoun circle, derail feminist discussions with demands to call women “birthing people”, make people so fed up they stop organising anywhere you might show up - so, anywhere public. The assault on basic simple language is a way of exhausting people into compliance.

Nothing to see here, look, Snopes has debunked the case where a woman claimed she was discriminated against for breastfeeding. According to them, "men can breastfeed too" wasn't the key factor in her losing her case, only a small contribution to it.

And there's no proven link between breastfeeding and being female. It's in Snopes, it must be right, right?

www.snopes.com/news/2015/02/06/milkman/

@Nellodee

My husband took his full entitlement of shared leave after I went back after 3 months. Whilst maternity is not actually 6 months at full pay, this was a life saver for us. I have no issue with the term parental leave (in addition to and not replacing maternity leave) and I think the world would be a better place if more men took a portion of it.

@Dartfordwarblerautumn was right. Mothers need time off.

Parental leave shouldn't be shared, imo.

Both parents should have a right to have time off with their children (possibly fathers a little less than mothers) That way women wouldn't be discounted from jobs due to having kids as the men also would have parental duties.

@GeorgiaMcGraw

I know there are trends within generations but I do hate it when people act like all under 40s afree with Cadi and co. I'm 29. I bought into the "inclusive/twaw" stuff until about 25 and then saw how damaging it was becoming. Women cannot have our existence whitewashed with "neutral" language that hides reality. If we can't define ourselves, how can we defend our rights? And that is an argument I recently had to make to a woman in her 40s (who did not have to suffer the indignity of being called a "birthing person" or "menstruator" etc when she was having children).

I would like to think that most people realize we can only make generalizations. Younger people are less likely to have the experience to question certain pronouncements, maybe especially because many haven't had kids.

I work with two women who seem very caught up in it all, one being a young person and the other a woman in her 50s who really should be too old for that sort of thing but is the sort who simply assumes that whatever is seen as politically progressive is good and seems to think that younger people are somehow more in tune to what is right.

I have started to wonder about this 'shared parental' and worry about the effect on mothers. As a pp said, there should be at the very least a period of time ring-fenced for the mother only to allow for time after the baby is born for re-cooperation/establishing feeding. I don't mean 2 weeks which seems to be the absolute legal minimum but enough time to properly recover. I didn't feel myself for months afterwards. It must be even more difficult for other women for a variety of different reasons (PND, baby having been premature etc). Parental leave which the father or partner can take should be in addition to, not instead of.

And no, 'they/them' is not inclusive. I am a woman and my pronouns are sex based.

Blueberry

Why on earth would inclusive pronouns result in Cadi being made redundant?

It's about missing words. If a society fails to develop ways to talk about the discrimination specifically experienced by particular groups, thereby disadvantaging them, it silences the victims of that group.

But it does not eliminate the discrimination.

Nothing wrong with the term maternity leave. Eh?

The rules around mat leave and pat leave are different. Because you know. Being heavily Pg and working and then having a baby is different to becoming a father.

Eg you have to give work a maternity cert so they have dates etc.

Changing that to a parental certificate (?) would be bizarre. Is my first thought!

@Waitwhat23

I have started to wonder about this 'shared parental' and worry about the effect on mothers. As a pp said, there should be at the very least a period of time ring-fenced for the mother only to allow for time after the baby is born for re-cooperation/establishing feeding. I don't mean 2 weeks which seems to be the absolute legal minimum but enough time to properly recover. I didn't feel myself for months afterwards. It must be even more difficult for other women for a variety of different reasons (PND, baby having been premature etc). Parental leave which the father or partner can take should be in addition to, not instead of.

And no, 'they/them' is not inclusive. I am a woman and my pronouns are sex based.

This is a potential problem for sure.

In practice very few men take much if any. Most wouldn't want to. Apart from other reasons.

Plan

Aside from anything else the term parental leave is already used for something else.

Any other renaming ideas?

Oh just realised the bit after the baby is shared parental leave to differentiate!

Sorry!