Times generation gap article

[Pudmyboy]

Sorry I can't do share tokens..in the Sunday Times, article 'Mind the generation gap..' about generational differences, there was this delight:
Cadi, who works in healthcare, agreed: “Recently we were updating some internet pages and one of them was to do with maternity leave and we updated the pronouns from she and her to they/them, just to be more inclusive. I think it’s definitely a positive ... I can’t see how it would affect anyone negatively.” But she had trouble convincing her parents. “I’ve got very liberal parents, but even they were against it, but they took some time to sort of realise what it was
Exclude to include...I despair!

I agree with pp shared parental leave should have a bit for mother only at beginning. More than 2 weeks which it is for most.

I'd say 6 weeks min. Time told to rest after section.

I am 1st Trimester pregnant.

Maternity leave and shared parental leave are not the same thing.

There are different leave allowances for different sexes, and whether anyone agrees with it or not - Thats the case.

So I don't understand why they are confusing this more. Its a mine field of confusion as it is.

And I am not surprised people are pissed off at it. I have been very aware of what a woman was and a man was for the whole of my life - obviously. But right now, in between the morning sickness, the constipation, the heartburn and what feels like my diaphragm, uterus and cervix reorganising itself - anyone who spouts this nonsense at me during this pregnancy is going to get extremely short shrift.

@PlanDeRaccordement

Well I do think that maternity leave as a term is outdated and should be called parental leave especially since there is shared parental leave and we should be encouraging men to take it instead of kowtowing to the socialisation that only the mother can be home with a baby on leave.

But switching pronouns to they/them when you still use the term maternity leave is ridiculous.

Totally disagree. Next week I’m going to use prenatal leave for an ultrasound and obstetrician appointment, my company have 38 hours available for me and 8-10 for a partner. Partners don’t have to get to increasingly frequent appts for their health, they mostly go along to the big scans so that’s plenty. They don’t need companies to be aware they might have to leave work weeks /months before baby’s due date due to health complications. They don’t have to recover from birth. My dh is taking paternity leave which will be awesome but I’m fine with it not being equal- having a baby is like the bacon and eggs breakfast. Partners are the hens, involved. Mothers are the pigs - heavily committed. Don’t remove that distinction in your language.

@LemonSwan that’s how I feel about observed at birth. I’m carrying a 20 week female foetus and if my obstetrician thought sex was something he could randomly tag at birth I’d want him disbarred. Obviously he doesn’t!

@timeisnotaline

That’s fine that you disagree. But I don’t think the fact that the mother has to use the lion’s share of parental leave due to biology necessarily justifies calling it maternity leave vs paternity leave.

I simply prefer the more sex neutral term of paternity leave as I think the old language and also having separate maternity leave from paternity leave in practice ends up supporting and perpetuating the patriarchal sexism around having a baby and then caring for him/her.

For example, in countries that have only parental leave, it can be shared however the parents choose. But in countries with maternity leave and paternity leave it is always the case that maternity leave is much longer than paternity leave because of the sexist assumption that the woman will be the one to stay home with baby long after she has physically recovered from the birth itself and the father will want to get back to work after only a couple of weeks.

Damn. I meant parental leave several times not paternity leave. Need coffee. Wish we could edit posts.

Can't see sex.

Can't see sexism.

But it doesn't stop sexism.

It just stops you being able to define it and combat it.

Describing reality is not what is holding up the patriarchy.

Ignoring the specific biological needs of women (and men), making them invisible in law causes harm. It does nothing to foster good relations between the sexes.

Yes maternity leave is very different to paternity leave. Not many father's will begin their leave suffering from major abdominal surgery or in extreme cases, recovering from a near death experience. Even without these traumas, establishing feeding takes a physical toll on women which men can never experience. To remove our name diminishes our experience but that of course is the purpose of not allowing a disadvantaged group the right to name themselves.

Once again it's the scourge of pretending to be blind to sources of discrimination (even though it's set down in law). Take away the language and you hide the true source of the discrimination.

"I don't think age is important. I just only employ people with at least 20 years experience but anyone can apply"

"I'm colour blind. It's just a co-incidence that everyone in my company looks like me"

"My company treats everyone the same and our policies are completely gender neutral for inclusion purposes. It's a total mystery why all the uterus havers in my business leave within 6 months of having their first child. The penis havers are a bit less workshy thank goodness!"

Parental leave as a concept doesn’t deny biological reality. It also doesn’t cause sex discrimination. The countries that use it, Scandinavian countries, have the most equal societies between the sexes on Earth.

Keeping outdated separate long maternity leave and short paternity leave absolutely perpetuates sex discrimination in society and the workplace. It’s the key cause of the gender pay gap because women are forced into taking much more time off than men for child rearing.

But, and this has been said, women have to recover from the gestation and birth. And men don't.
Which only makes it equality, if you have decided that equality = identical treatment.

@Thelnebriati

But, and this has been said, women have to recover from the gestation and birth. And men don't. Which only makes it equality, if you have decided that equality = identical treatment.

No, I haven’t said that equality equals identical treatment, but it does mean equal time off. All we have to do is ensure that parental leave is long enough such that the woman can recover and there is still plenty of time for her partner to do their fair share of early parenting.

A couple are given say 2yrs parental leave to split however they like. This socially encourages the non child bearing partner to on average take equal time off as the child bearing partner. This then closes the gender pay and pension gap. As shown in Scandinavian countries.

Holding on to outdated long maternity leave and short paternity leave reinforces the patriarchal assumptions that the women will want to take most of the time off and men shouldn’t be expected (or supported!) to take much time at all off. When in reality so many couples would rather there be the ability to split it more equitably, but they can’t afford to have the man off once their two weeks paternity leave is done, so they are under economic duress and social expectation to take the rest of their maternity leave. This then sets back their career and is the #1 cause of the gender pay gap and pension gap. It’s known as the motherhood penalty.

Now, I know U.K. has shared parental leave. But it’s an add on and not many couples are using it because they find that for men, there are not the same protections or funding in place from their employers as there are for women on maternity leave. In other words, UK government is not committed to parental leave. It still wants women to be home with babies, and so doesn’t really support nonconforming couples.

No, I haven’t said that equality equals identical treatment, but it does mean equal time off.
OK. glad we got that sorted!

Back to the survey, some of the questions are loaded and I think its created bias in the answers people gave.
''I know someone personally who describes themselves as transsexual or non-binary'' is more likely to be true for younger people; but did they ask
''I know someone personally who describes themselves as gay or lesbian''
which is more likely to be true for the older generation?

@Thelnebriati

But, and this has been said, women have to recover from the gestation and birth. And men don't. Which only makes it equality, if you have decided that equality = identical treatment.

But in the period where the mother is recovering, her partner should be around to help out. Mothers have to always rely on family (who may not be around, available or alive) or soldier on alone with postpartum injuries plus caring for a newborn (or two!)

@Thelnebriati
Yes I agree, of the questions they listed they then compared under 25s to over 25s. Which is ridiculous because they’re comparing one generation of youth to multiple older generations. It is more likely that a 25-35yr old is closer in view to an under 25yr old than a 75-85yr old.

A generation gap is the gap between two adjacent generations, not the gap between one generation and the average of all other generations.

But in the period where the mother is recovering, her partner should be around to help out.

I don't see anyone saying thats not the case?
What we disagree with is what that leave should be called. Men never gestate and are never post partum.

Who does the spadework when it comes to growing a baby, giving birth and breastfeeding?

Who gains when you use language to obfuscate that fact? Certainly not women.

@timeisnotaline

Congratulations!

It is crazy isn't it. In my naivety I thought pregnancy was not having a period for 9 months. When it seems its turning out to be all the symptoms of a period (without the actual period) plus a thousand other health ailments ranging from a permanent state of norovirus to chronic fatigue syndrome.

This is my first lap round the circuit and I wouldnt wish this on my worst enemy; and apart from my very unstable diaphragm which is definitely worst than most for 1st Tri - I think most of my symptoms are average or not really at full swing yet; so I cannot imagine the hell that some women go through in pregnancy. Even reading about others with HG makes me break out in a cold gagging sweat.

So I find this whole subject very irritating atm. And its not really anything to do with trans people as much as some TRAs would like to make it so. Its to do with women born women not having an independent name to refer to their very existence.

Every single person in this world was born from a woman. It is so risky that in most cases life insurance will not cover maternal death during birth. And yet everyone wants to conflate sex with gender identify - thats fine there are crazy people everywhere. But the doctors, the media, the government, the law! How fucking dare they! Absolutely no respect.

Wait...I thought only non binary people used they/them pronouns. So Cady's just excluded everyone else.

It is more likely that a 25-35yr old is closer in view to an under 25yr old than a 75-85yr old.

And weirdly on this point. It is actually a phenomenon that under 25s atm are wildly different from 25-35yos. I am in the upper group but many peers have younger siblings in the former and we have had many discussions about what on earth is going on.

Its not just this topic. Overall they have very little autonomous thinking; instead more group think with bouts of cognitive dissonance. And its not a 'need to grow up thing'. Many are mid 20s and they haven't changed. They grew up in the same families, had the same parental influences, cultural conditions. It is inexplicable.

The only thing we have found that holds any weight as a theory is that they are the only generation who had social media on mobile from a young age.

@LemonSwan
And weirdly on this point. It is actually a phenomenon that under 25s atm are wildly different from 25-35yos. I am in the upper group but many peers have younger siblings in the former and we have had many discussions about what on earth is going on.

Yes agree, there are definitely marked differences as my DC are in both groups. However, to me, and I’m in group of 45-55yr olds, the under 25 and 25-35yr olds have more in common with each other than with my group?

I would have liked to have seen the study directly compare under 25 to 25-35yr olds because as you say there are drastic differences. But by comparing under 25 to everyone else those differences were lost/overshadowed by differences of older generations being mixed in.

PlanDeRaccordement
Oh yes absolutely agree that its stupid.

But the phenomenon between the under and over 25s is fascinating isn't it. How and why are they so different. I really hope the younger group do somehow 'grow out of it'.

I listened to an interview with Yeonmi Park & Joe Rogan, she survived and escaped North Korea. She said the disinformation, denial of truths and cognitive dissonance here (US & West) was no different to there. And it terrifies her. Thats quite extreme but her words not mine.

I think its a serious problem.

The only thing we have found that holds any weight as a theory is that they are the only generation who had social media on mobile from a young age.

Universities are also full of queer theory and gender ideology.