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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Janice Turner on Starmer, Labour and Gender

76 replies

Igneococcus · 17/09/2021 21:19

and also the SNP and WEP, but mostly Labour:

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/fd1ec980-17e9-11ec-8982-e4706e2eecb0?shareToken=4fa639c83d8fefe8c1b934f0651acb72

OP posts:
Whereareyourshoes · 17/09/2021 23:14

Excellent piece. Thank you for sharing.

MrsOvertonsWindow · 17/09/2021 23:14

That's brilliant - and the comments underneath are equally furious.

BecauseOfTheRain · 17/09/2021 23:18

Outstanding! Thanks so much for sharing. I have tried so hard to understand why any rational woman could feel otherwise, but am struggling. I hope it becomes clearer to all political parties that this is such a priority to so many voters

334bu · 17/09/2021 23:27

Thank you

Selkiesarereal · 17/09/2021 23:28

Brilliant article and yes women are furious and I hope it will be reflected at the ballot box although I’m worried that up here in Scotland we are too far down the rabbit hole.

catzwhiskas · 17/09/2021 23:30

Time for all politicians to wake up and see that this issue is fundamental to them and their party’s survival. Thank you Janice for outing your finger on it yet again. Cheering after today’s news.

Oblahdeeoblahdoe · 18/09/2021 01:12

Best piece for a long time. I've resigned from the Labour Party and told them why.

Sophoclesthefox · 18/09/2021 07:00

Excellent piece, Janice. As always, she is absolutely incredible at drawing together all of the disparate strands.

Am currently helping my Lib Dem member husband compose his resignation letter from the party off the back of Ed Davey’s witless, fawning chucking of women under the bus.

Liberal values my arse.

HumphreyCobblers · 18/09/2021 07:08

As ever, a brilliant article from Janice.

NoWordForFluffy · 18/09/2021 07:24

@RoseAndGeranium

If Ali wins leadership I’ll join the Greens. I left the LDs over exactly this issue about 6 months ago. At the moment I have no idea which way I’d vote in an election because I think the current govt is ludicrous but there’s no way I could vote for Ed ‘No Female Spaces’ Davey or Keir ‘GRA Reform Pledge’ Starmer and their GI captured parties.
I joined the Greens to vote for Ali. If he wins, I'll stay a member. I left Labour because Keir Starmer let me down on this issue; I had great hopes for him too.
CandidaAlbicans2 · 18/09/2021 07:36

Great article, thanks for sharing. As other commentors have said, I feel politically adrift because I don't share Tory values, but equally I can't vote for the left of centre parties because of their stance on the trans agenda ☹️ To think I had such optimism for Keir Starmer when he was first appointed leader, but look where we are now 🙄

LizzieSiddal · 18/09/2021 08:01

If you don’t respect my Sex, you can’t expect my X

That just about sums all this up. I hope those idiot male leaders are reading.

TooWicked · 18/09/2021 09:14

@AnotherLass

If Ali wins, I will quit Labour and join the Greens.

I didn't do it to vote for him because I thought that the chances of him winning were very small and Tamsin et al's were quite high, and I'm certainly not prepared to be in a party led by the latter. So I'd just have to quit again straightaway, which felt morally dubious.

I did exactly that - joined the Greens purely to vote for Sharhar and will leave straight away I’d he doesn’t win. It didn’t feel morally dubious at all Grin.

I bloody hope he wins, and hope it sends a strong message to the other parties.

MadameKali · 18/09/2021 09:20

Another brilliant article by Janice Turner. She consistently nails it.
Three years ago if you'd told me I'd be cheering on an article in the Times I'd have laughed in your face.

NoWordForFluffy · 18/09/2021 09:25

I did exactly that - joined the Greens purely to vote for Sharhar and will leave straight away I’d he doesn’t win. It didn’t feel morally dubious at all.

I don't think it is. The message is that we want to be able to vote for them, so we've joined to make them an acceptable choice. I don't see a problem with that! How are political parties going to change if it isn't from within?

Tibtom · 18/09/2021 09:37

If only we could have asked "what is a woman? " at the Scottish Hustings in May. But as they were virtual the questions were controlled and women were excluded from the democratic process.

PostingForTheFirstTime · 18/09/2021 09:55

The article is excellent. What is also heartening is that, as far down as I read in the comments, the readers are all on board with the thrust of the article.

EmbarrassingAdmissions · 18/09/2021 10:26

If you don’t respect my sex, you can’t expect to get my X.

If you disrespect my sex, don't expect my X.

If you don't respect my sex, don't expect my X.

Disrespect my sex? You don't get my X.

I would be pleased to see a mainstream party adopt such a bold stance but it won't happen.

I'd even like this to be a campaign for the Fawcett Society if I hadn't given up on them completely.

Popuptent · 18/09/2021 10:50

Thanks for share token. Brilliant article.

Gasp0deTheW0nderD0g · 18/09/2021 11:05

Disrespect my sex? Don't expect my X.

Needs a t-shirt.

Thanks for the share token. Janice nails it again.

Mrsorganmorgan · 18/09/2021 12:50

Just looked at the SDP policy on Trans poeple. Looks OK.

secular111 · 18/09/2021 14:39

There are a lot of comments from male subscribers BTL on the lines of;

In previous years it wasn’t on my radar at all.

And now it is.

That and the copious comments from women who have given-up with Labour/LibDems/The Greens & SNP, and perhaps most regular-of-all The Guardian, which has now gone full Alex Jones of late, suggests that there's been a recent step-change in knowledge of the subject.

Widespread knowledge of the issues was always going to be the greatest risk to the TRA's and Vichy Feminists; ignorance really was regarded as a virtue, bigotry even, with absolutely no desire to even try to analyse the opposing view. Hence how opposition grew because of the unsuccessful effort to employ #nodebate. At present the TRA effort seems geared to trying to convince the wider public that leftist women and men have suddenly become raging fascists and Nazi's, and that seems to be peaking even more of the undecided.

We've seen false dawns before, but I reckon that critical threshold is being reached where a sizable majority of the public becomes aware of the issues, and decide where their loyalties lay - and for the most part it won't be with the TRA line. The increasing perception that the transgender cause is blatantly homophobic is adding a substantial weight to the tipping scales.

To use a nerdy analogy, if Mac OSX was the gender critical view and Windows the TRA vision, then I know lots of people who have switched from Windows to OSX; I've never met anyone who has gone the other way.

The wrong side of history is often quoted, and I reckon a lot of non-fanatical TRA's are reevaluating their stance. I don't think for one second that most of them will suddenly switch to being gender critical or suddenly expressing pro-science beliefs; more likely they will simply drop away from the activism and wait by the sidelines in the hope that their social media postings they've deleted weren't archived/screenshot.

CreepingDeath · 18/09/2021 15:09

Janice is spot on, as usual. Very heartening that the vast majority of the times comments agree.

CreepingDeath · 18/09/2021 15:10

The wrong side of history is often quoted, and I reckon a lot of non-fanatical TRA's are reevaluating their stance. I don't think for one second that most of them will suddenly switch to being gender critical or suddenly expressing pro-science beliefs; more likely they will simply drop away from the activism and wait by the sidelines in the hope that their social media postings they've deleted weren't archived/screenshot.

Yes, I agree - I think many of them will slither away and hope nobody notices. In a few years, when things have moved on to the next trend, they will be banging on about something else.

Meanwhile, we will still be picking up the pieces.

drinkingwineoutofamug · 18/09/2021 15:14

Just here to ask is the Green Party definition of a female really a self identifying non-male?
Who the fuck came up with that bull shit ?