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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Passing

84 replies

leafinthewind · 17/09/2021 11:09

After listening to Ed Davey on the Today programme I was thinking about passing. For a trans person who truly passes, there has never really been a problem accessing the spaces they prefer, right? No one questions a man in the Gents or a woman in the Ladies if they have no doubt that the individual in question is in the 'correct' toilet.

Biological men have been able to enter women's spaces as long as they pass as women. In addition, women have generally ignored access to women's spaces by biological men who don't quite pass but are clearly make a good faith attempt to pass because we are generally polite and trained to be non-confrontational. Finally, women are unlikely to challenge men making a clearly bad faith attempt to pass, because those men are outside the social boundaries we're used to, so we choose not to provoke them for our own safety.

So when Davey says that there should be no spaces for women and girls that transwomen can't access, he's taking a political position, but also describing the world as it is; as it has been all my adult life. We've only ever excluded men who are beyond the pale, and then only when we've had an organisation behind us e.g. a prison. So the key difference between the world-as-it-is and the world-as-he-wants-it-to-be is that men who are beyond the pale in terms of their social behaviour now cannot be excluded, even by organisations. Do you think I've got that right?

OP posts:
irresistibleoverwhelm · 17/09/2021 21:29

Have you seen this yourself? Or just read about it?

That article reads as extremely tendentious to me.

If I have never seen any of this gender policing as a lesbian woman, going out in London and other Western cities with a wide bunch of LGB friends of all presentations from the 90s to the present, why is it seemingly increasing just at the point when everyone is getting more and more accepting of LGBT people everywhere?

I've been around a lot of places and saw people getting called 'queer' or 'lezza' in the street for being GNC regularly until well into the 2010s. No gender policing in the ladies though. And much more acceptance of a wide variety of gender presentation and sexuality than used to be the case. Plus, many women have always been GNC. No-one is in the loo "challenging" Carol from the accounts department who's had a short haircut and worn a plaid shirt since 1985.

Reads to me more like the article has an agenda - to create the idea of "gender policing" being the fault of women, in particular. Especially this idea in it that GNC women feel more comfortable in the men's loos!! Grin Righty-ho, if you believe that, I've got a bridge to sell you...

Helleofabore · 17/09/2021 21:32

And yet, if we did not have this issue of males entering into female spaces in the first place, this discussion about non-conforming women wouldn’t even be necessary.

And it still wouldn’t if males respected those female single sex spaces. No matter how much they feel they should be entitled to use them.

irresistibleoverwhelm · 17/09/2021 21:33

..and before any of our friends start reporting me for the bridge reference, no it isn't troll hunting, it's a reference to a famous American con-artist who notoriously proved very successful in his attempts to sell gullible people the Brooklyn Bridge (which he claimed to own).

Tibtom · 17/09/2021 21:35

Just wondering how someone is GNC Cis? Surely the whole point of cis is you identify with and conform to strict gender stereotypes which no one does

irresistibleoverwhelm · 17/09/2021 21:45

@Tibtom

Just wondering how someone is GNC Cis? Surely the whole point of cis is you identify with and conform to strict gender stereotypes which no one does
Careful there, we're not supposed to notice stuff like that -- the whole edifice might come crashing down! Grin

I suspect that nowadays young people are not allowed to be GNC but also "cis" unless they identify as "non binary". Logically, of course, "non-binary" should be the opposite ideology of "trans"; but we can't think too hard about that either, because then we might have to notice that "non-binary" logic undoes trans ideology and vice versa.

Ultimately, it boils down to "I like gender stereotypes" vs "I don't like gender stereotypes"; but you still have to believe that the stereotypes are real things, and that people basing their whole "identities" on them is perfectly normal and "valid".

The most important thing to remember is that the people who like the stereotypes like the people who don't like the stereotypes and vice versa; but they all don't like the people who point out that maybe the stereotypes are not only not real, but possibly one might have a more fulfilling life not caring about them at all. That, of course, is the very worst opinion ever -- and nobody is allowed to like that.

Soontobe60 · 17/09/2021 21:46

@Tibtom

Men don't pass as women.

Women don't challenge men because they are afraid.

This absolutely.
FlyingOink · 17/09/2021 21:53

I've been challenged in the toilets, that is to say I have had a few questions, numerous double takes and thankfully only one or two outright nasty homophobic comments.

Generally I go out of my way to ensure women in the women's toilets can tell I'm female too. Normally I leave my coat outside for example, so my boobs are obvious.

I have noticed zero increase in homophobia as a result of women "suddenly" not being on board with fetishist men using the women's toilets.

The article linked is interesting, because the last slew of them I saw, 3/4 were written by a policy wonk from Stonewall (which wasn't mentioned of course).

Also, look at the pictures in the article. They don't look like men...

Franca123 · 17/09/2021 22:01

Best Post ever!

Franca123 · 17/09/2021 22:02

That was aimed at irresistibleoverwhelm

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