Passing

[leafinthewind]

After listening to Ed Davey on the Today programme I was thinking about passing. For a trans person who truly passes, there has never really been a problem accessing the spaces they prefer, right? No one questions a man in the Gents or a woman in the Ladies if they have no doubt that the individual in question is in the 'correct' toilet.

Biological men have been able to enter women's spaces as long as they pass as women. In addition, women have generally ignored access to women's spaces by biological men who don't quite pass but are clearly make a good faith attempt to pass because we are generally polite and trained to be non-confrontational. Finally, women are unlikely to challenge men making a clearly bad faith attempt to pass, because those men are outside the social boundaries we're used to, so we choose not to provoke them for our own safety.

So when Davey says that there should be no spaces for women and girls that transwomen can't access, he's taking a political position, but also describing the world as it is; as it has been all my adult life. We've only ever excluded men who are beyond the pale, and then only when we've had an organisation behind us e.g. a prison. So the key difference between the world-as-it-is and the world-as-he-wants-it-to-be is that men who are beyond the pale in terms of their social behaviour now cannot be excluded, even by organisations. Do you think I've got that right?

@CatherinaJTV:

well, if you want to change in a communal changing room, or pee in peace in the women's toilets and you get aggressively challenged because you are taken for a man, then that is hardly "adventageous".

Can you clarify what your argument is here?

Is it:
a). Some GNC women very occasionally get accidentally “misgendered” by other women, and this is such a heinous crime that all women must therefore let men into the loos as a collective punishment for this;
or;
b) so that some men can “pee in peace”, all the women and girls don’t get to “pee in peace”?

Because, as the logical end point of your argument, if women should not be threatened by men in the loo, then why can’t trans women (who are women, under this dogma), pee in peace in the men’s loo?

Either they’re women and so not at risk of violence by men; or they’re not women, and as a result will attract violence from other men. Which is it? They can’t both be true.

@RufustheBadgeringReindeer

When ive been missexed its been by men

I did have a dr receptionist call me sir a few weeks ago but to be fair I don’t think the mask was helping

That's a good point, Rufus. I've been mis-sexed a few times in my life - I really don't give a hoot - and every time it's been a male who did so.

Is there research on accuracy of sex recognition split by sex, I wonder?

Ach, we need a different word than 'sex', it's so difficult trying to google anything with it included.

Found this,

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2744967/

'Men appear to interpret people’s behaviors more sexually than do women'

• but nothing on sexing people. Well, not in the way I mean, anyway. There's a lot of stuff on the internet about sexing people, isn't there?

Men shouldn’t be in women-only spaces. Ever.

The only reason it’s happened so far is due to women being kind or by stealth.

That’s completely different to mandating it in law so any bloke can declare himself a woman (despite all evidence to the contrary) and have a free pass at yourselves, your mothers and daughters in toilets, changing rooms, DV shelters and everywhere else.

Why do women have to set aside their own safety and comfort to satisfy a feeling in a man’s head?

This is an old study done on ability to read sex from faces. It will be still relevant. I posted it on the Break it down for me thread a few days ago.

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/8474840/

Sex discrimination: how do we tell the difference between male and female faces?
V Bruce et al. Perception. 1993.

Abstract

People are remarkably accurate (approaching ceiling) at deciding whether faces are male or female, even when cues from hair style, makeup, and facial hair are minimised.

Rather interesting isn't? I guess if a gender non-conforming female is micro-dosing with testosterone as we have been told happens by other posters, it would make it more difficult to detect. But I think that the 'GNC women getting hassled' tends to get overplayed and having grown up as a GNC girl, being constantly mistaken for a boy, I also think the reaction gets also amplified by those seeking to distract from the fact that women can usually tell accurately whether a male has come into a single sex space.

I am sure that some women will be asked as well, there is no denying it. However, how many of those being asked are offended vs how many of those being asked are appreciative of other women's efforts to maintain a single sex space?

Now that is a study I would like to see the results of. As long as it was strictly independent and non biased.

Absolutely, Helleofabore - and it’s interesting that the comparison is always between trans women and GNC women being “misgendered” in the ladies’ loo. And it’s formulated as something like “GNC women sometimes get “misgendered” by other women, so somehow this means it’s unjustified that women should be able to ever have same-sex-only loos”.

But the whole “pee in peace” argument falls down if you reverse it and instead of pretending trans women are actually women, to make the analogy work, instead call them “GNC men”. In which case - why aren’t the TRA lot on men’s forums telling them not to “aggressively challenge” GNC men in their loos?

Is it just not such an enjoyable ride to go on Reddit and tell a bunch of men they need to let GNC men “pee in peace” in the men’s loos?

I’ve yet to hear an argument as to why the desire of some GNC men to “pee in peace” is more important than women’s and girls’ need to pee in peace?

Even the smallest transwoman is likely to stand a better chance against male aggression or rape than a woman or a little girl. So why is it the women and girls who have to budge up and put up and shut up and not get to pee in peace? I would really like @CatherinaJTV to speak on this point.

I think it shows just how much transactivists and gender ideologists are AGAINST gender non-conformity, and how stereotype-ridden their thinking is.

And as others have said, the fact that occasionally a woman may be mistaken for a man doesn't mean that men should be allowed in women's single sex spaces.

Anyway, my initial thought was that only men who are completely outside social norms get challenged, and even then only when an organisation is strong enough to do so.

I think his original premise is flawed, as PP have stated there never really was a carte blanche approach for "passing" transwomen. They either didn't pass and women were scared, or they didn't pass and women were polite. The "stealth" thing is overplayed. Even if a transwoman passes to some people, some of the time, it won't be to every woman all the time.

So I might think X is a natal woman and not notice X in the ladies', but you might notice. Is he really suggesting some transwomen pass so well that nobody notices ever? Especially years ago pre FFS? It seems really unlikely.

It boils down to "women are going to get raped anyway, stop being so mean".

Also, we've never excluded anyone except using local rules and policy. You could walk into the gents' in a shopping centre, it's not illegal. If you did it at work, you might get reprimanded if someone complained and thought your actions were inappropriate. But the law doesn't state that a man can't enter a women's toilet, it isn't even legally required that a sign is put up when a male cleaner is in there, AFAIK. That's just customary.

It's more about reducing risk, and dealing with incidents. If it becomes customary for all toilets to be used by men, then there will be no grounds for (as an example) security staff to ask a man to leave because he is making women feel uncomfortable. There would be no social expectation that he should leave. There is no law that says he has to leave. The risk would increase, because not only will those toilets be used by men who get a stiffy at the thought of being perceived as a woman, but also by men who like to spy on women, listen to women urinate and defecate and change sanpro, and men who want to attack women, and men who hadn't even considered it but are now emboldened by the fact they are allowed. Like how we see the use of prostituted women increasing massively where it is legalised, men will use this new permission because why not? Which in itself increases risk. You might be safer in the gents'.

That's why the "organisation behind us" bit is important. The lack of actual legal provision in many situations is weird. Why isn't it illegal for a man to go into the women's toilets? You could write a law that made it legal for security staff or first responders or police or the cleaner etc to go in there, couldn't you?

And where it is written in law, those laws are ignored, eg in hospitals and prisons. Where the law states there should be separate facilities, those laws are also ignored. The law just isn't working for us.

As for the "poor butch women" bullshit - there is no correlation between crossdressing men colonising women's facilities and women being homophobic to other women. They have yet to explain why they think keeping those men out of the women's toilet makes me safer in any way. (Spoiler: it doesn't.)

I think it shows just how much transactivists and gender ideologists are AGAINST gender non-conformity, and how stereotype-ridden their thinking is.

It's barely hidden hostility to butch lesbians too. Transactivists hate that we are not trans when according to all their measures, we should be.

Men don't pass as women.

Women don't challenge men because they are afraid.

This.

I’d add that either afraid, or being kind or polite, as we are socialised to do.

Afraid if the man is a stranger; kind/polite if the man is known to us.

They have yet to explain why they think keeping those men out of the women's toilet makes me safer in any way.
This was written all wrong I meant to say letting them in

NGC cis women

Please don’t use that term here @CatherinaJTV Women are not a subset of our own sex.

And your argument about non-gender conforming women is deeply sexist. A woman is a woman is a woman. To misquote Gertrude Stein.

Who was an amazing woman.

Is there research on accuracy of sex recognition split by sex, I wonder?

Dr Katie Alcock’s research is on this topic, in children mostly I think. And she gets a steady stream of aggression and complaint about daring to do this work.

@KaycePollard

NGC cis women

Please don’t use that term here @CatherinaJTV Women are not a subset of our own sex.

And your argument about non-gender conforming women is deeply sexist. A woman is a woman is a woman. To misquote Gertrude Stein.

Who was an amazing woman.

Of course they are women, which makes it upsetting for them (and me, watching), when they are misgendered (or missexed, if you prefer) AND gaslit here by those who pretend that women can always tell, because some mystical women power.

So A gets challenged by B because the think they are not the "correct" sex. Then what? Nothing at all that's what. Unless you want to get violent.

Of course they are women, which makes it upsetting for them (and me, watching), when they are misgendered (or missexed, if you prefer) AND gaslit here by those who pretend that women can always tell, because some mystical women power.

And yet you ignore those very women, on this thread, saying that opening up female facilities to males upsets them more far more than the odd brief mistake about their sex.

I don't think you care about female people's feelings and needs at all, other than in support of males getting what they want.

actually - I have exclusively talked about women's feelings, mine, and those of my friends/acquaintances who do/did get misgendered more often.

@irresistibleoverwhelm

No comment…

And the University of Edinburgh declared that 'avoidance behaviour' (this woman leaving the area because she felt uncomfortable) is a microaggression against trans people. Even if women don't feel comfortable or safe, they aren't allowed any autonomy - even to leave is 'transphobic'.

Given the Hate Crime Bill in Scotland, the possibility of being prosecuted for such 'microaggressions' (at work or another place where you have connections rather than a public toilet) is an sinister possibility.

Photo didn't show - I'm referencing the unpleasant photo linked on page one of this thread which gleefully celebrates a 'cis' woman being made so uncomfortable that she backed out of a set of toilets.

So A gets challenged by B because the think they are not the "correct" sex. Then what? Nothing at all that's what. Unless you want to get violent.

Any male in a woman's space is statistically more likely to get violent so it's doubtful. And yes we know many males don't respect female privacy and dignity.

@CatherinaJTV

actually - I have exclusively talked about women's feelings, mine, and those of my friends/acquaintances who do/did get misgendered more often.

Great...so to clarify, your comments about what GNC women feel and how that relates to trans woman are specific to a very small group of people known to you, and not statements or conclusions about what the general population of female people may or may not feel or accept. Good to get that cleared up.

Of course they are women, which makes it upsetting for them (and me, watching), when they are misgendered (or missexed, if you prefer) AND gaslit here by those who pretend that women can always tell, because some mystical women power.

Do you live in the UK, CatherinaJTV?

I'm in my 40s, have been around a bit, and I've never once seen any woman "misgendered" in front of me, "watching", in any loo, ever. Neither have I ever encountered any woman in person, GNC or not (and I'm LB myself), who's ever told me this has happened to her, either in North America or anywhere in Europe.

I don't doubt it's possible and might occasionally happen. But I am, I have to say, pretty surprised that you can have "watched" this happen multiple times. Is this in Germany? (In my experience in Germany women are less bothered about being "gender conforming" that in the Anglosphere.)

Why, in any case, would GNC women be either surprised or offended by being accidentally "misgendered"? I've never met any adult woman who particularly cares if someone accidentally mistakes her for a man? It really is not something that adults really care about in the main. If GNC women cared desperately about being mistaken for a man occasionally, presumably they would dress more gender conforming, no?

It's like your whole argument is weirdly filtered through a trans sensibility, without any awareness that for the vast majority of adults especially GNC or LBG adults misgendering isn't a thing, and certainly isn't amazingly offensive.

The only straight people who tend to get upset about misgendering are the very gender-conforming types who put football shirts and flowery headbands on teeny babies in case they catch the gay I've never met a butch lesbian who's having conniptions because someone thought for a moment that she might be a man in the loo. (People who care about that kind of thing usually festoon themselves with gendered items just in case, not the other way around....)

@Waitwhat23

Photo didn't show - I'm referencing the unpleasant photo linked on page one of this thread which gleefully celebrates a 'cis' woman being made so uncomfortable that she backed out of a set of toilets.

I think I posted that it's around on social media. But of course (for anyone who can't see the photo), it's obvious that the issue is not that the woman felt uncomfortable because the person was trans but because they were photographing themselves prominently carrying a fencing blade/sword festooned with the trans colours.

Finding anyone in the loos brandishing a large weapon might be thought of as making one uncomfortable

@irresistibleoverwhelm

Of course they are women, which makes it upsetting for them (and me, watching), when they are misgendered (or missexed, if you prefer) AND gaslit here by those who pretend that women can always tell, because some mystical women power.

Do you live in the UK, CatherinaJTV?

I'm in my 40s, have been around a bit, and I've never once seen any woman "misgendered" in front of me, "watching", in any loo, ever. Neither have I ever encountered any woman in person, GNC or not (and I'm LB myself), who's ever told me this has happened to her, either in North America or anywhere in Europe.

I don't doubt it's possible and might occasionally happen. But I am, I have to say, pretty surprised that you can have "watched" this happen multiple times. Is this in Germany? (In my experience in Germany women are less bothered about being "gender conforming" that in the Anglosphere.)

Why, in any case, would GNC women be either surprised or offended by being accidentally "misgendered"? I've never met any adult woman who particularly cares if someone accidentally mistakes her for a man? It really is not something that adults really care about in the main. If GNC women cared desperately about being mistaken for a man occasionally, presumably they would dress more gender conforming, no?

It's like your whole argument is weirdly filtered through a trans sensibility, without any awareness that for the vast majority of adults especially GNC or LBG adults misgendering isn't a thing, and certainly isn't amazingly offensive.

The only straight people who tend to get upset about misgendering are the very gender-conforming types who put football shirts and flowery headbands on teeny babies in case they catch the gay I've never met a butch lesbian who's having conniptions because someone thought for a moment that she might be a man in the loo. (People who care about that kind of thing usually festoon themselves with gendered items just in case, not the other way around....)

www.refinery29.com/en-gb/gender-policing-single-sex-spaces-uk

(needs a "shrug" icon)

There are more stories like that.

Started to read the article which Catherina linked as was genuinely interested in how this whole debate has affected GNC people. Unfortunately, it's so full of misinformation, presented as fact, including misrepresenting the Equalities Act and referencing that misleading YouGov survey, that it's simply not credible.

If anyone has some actual, credible sources regarding issues which GRC women have experienced while accessing single sex spaces, I'd be interested to read it.