Who do the transgender activists actually represent?

[FrustratinglyIrrational]

From my interactions with transgender women in normal life, I get the impression that many are just trying to get on with their lives quietly, and have no desire to make women uncomfortable. They feel unrepresented and embarrassed by the activist movement, and are nothing like the entitled bullies screaming all over social media. So who are all these people pushing the "trans agenda"? I don't believe they have the best interests of gender dysphoric people at heart, because their actions are doing a huge amount of damage to the public perception of that group, and they must be aware of that. They are giving very tolerant people good reasons to become less tolerant. And then claiming that tolerance for transgender people is at an all-time low, and that we should therefore acquiesce to their every demand. Are these activists not ultimately the biggest oppressors of the people they claim to represent?

I think it's a movement that has come along for whatever societal reasons – the rise of individualism and identity being one – and was probably originally well intentioned, at least by some. And it has taken off because it appeals to a variety of types -

• well-meaning often young lib fems who want to be kind and welcome "all women" including males, without understanding that their urge to #bekind may be to do with the misogyny and gendered expectations they've absorbed and not interrogated.
• women-hating men who are powerfully drawn to the opportunity to have their hatred of feminists legitimised - maybe not consciously, especially as it gives them a sheen of moral rectitude.
• AGPs who are able to take advantage of it all to do their thing while being feted and told how great they are
• kids who are drawn to a fashionable status that makes everyone big them up and give them loads of attention - particularly in the age of needing validation from others and social media to show off on
• parents who seek same via their kids
• people/kids who are not fitters-in desperately seeking a tribe or family to belong to
• gay kids who are being offered what looks like a way to escape being gay
• anyone who wants to show how right-on and moral they are on twitter etc
• any organisation/government that wants to tick boxes by getting approval from stonewall, not realising/caring that this "inclusiveness" is problematic, based on untruths and threatens other people's rights.
• and of course big pharma / business who will always encourage a movement that holds the promise of a massive future market for them.

Thanks to the internet it spreads fast and all these people/groups/organisations can access it easily without understanding it. Those speaking out against it are easy to dismiss as shouty feminists, after all women arguing for their rights have always been dismissed that way.

I also question that if trans people don’t agree with what activists are doing and saying in their name, where are they fighting to have their actual words, their actual needs amplified?

I see this sometimes where posters tell us what the ‘vast majority’ say or believe. I find this very concerning. I would not put myself in a position of speaking for any ‘vast majority’ even if I was representative of that group of people. Yet, ‘activists’ do it here sometimes. I am very very wary of those people’s true agenda, I doubt very much that they are in anyway ‘representational’ of trans people.

To take an example, I look at issues like the abuse of lesbians for stating their sexual boundaries. Where are the ‘vast majority’ of the trans people who supposedly believe that women should be able to say no to any penis, telling activists and extremists to back off? If it is the ‘vast majority’, their voices should overpower the loud minority. the lack of push back about this issue allows the abuse to continue. And it leaves me question where the majority actually are on the issues.

Oh and of course I forgot -

• predators who always take advantage of an opportunity where one arises.

When you look at aggressive/intolerant trans activism on social media, you can't help but see a great deal of evidence of mental ill health. It's hard to know whether it's self-diagnosed or self-identified, but it's all over the social media accounts.

Good summary QueenPeary of the different groups that have their own motivations for supporting or following trans activism as it currently stands today.

nauticant

As Glinner says, perhaps not entirely unfairly, 'The first generation not allowed to play in the street.'

Where are the ‘vast majority’ of the trans people who supposedly believe that women should be able to say no to any penis, telling activists and extremists to back off? If it is the ‘vast majority’, their voices should overpower the loud minority.

Maybe one issue here is that what used to be called transsexuals, people with dysphoria who have surgery and try to find relief but understood they had not actually changed sex, are actually now a small minority of "trans" people - because "trans" people as a category now includes large numbers of AGPs, blue-haired middle-class they/them teenagers, and those who are "trans" in bad faith eg the convicted rapists with their oddly high rate of self-ID.

I would say there is a movement in favour of a realistic, scientific and cautious understanding of the issues led by some transmen, Scott Newgent in the US for example has started a campaign group against transition of minors.

There are also individuals such as Debbie Hayton who have a public profile and will represent this view in interviews and debates.

There was a post about Nicola Sturgeons new proposals on the Simple Politics Instagram the other day. Lots of people had commented with things like 'well, that's good' or 'ooh what does this therefore mean bla bla bla'. It was actually quite respectful and thoughtful until some bloke came on and posted 'FUCK ALL THE TERFS!' in shouty capitals, just like that. It got loads of likes! It suggests that trans activists just like anonymous drama, and making women feel angry and threatened.

Because, let's face it, no-one knows about the intersection between transgender and women's rights better than a shouty millennial man on Instagram.

I think a big problem is that having any sort of public presence on social media is to a greater or lesser extent, attention seeking.

I think in modern times most people are very wary of being offensive even accidentally, and are keen to line up on the side of the correct morality. And most people know that that means being - or for some, just appearing to be - anti-racist, anti-homophobic, and as inclusive as possible.

Because gender-critical views or any questioning of TRA demands have deliberately been presented by activists as bigotry, just like racism and homophobia, people will shun them and vocally join the purported "moral" side before they'll stop to question.

After all you don't stop to question "do homophobic bigots have a point". Because we all understand homophobia and gay rights issues going way back. People have been told that "trans rights" are exactly the same as gay rights. Most people just want to do the right thing and not be mean to a minority. It takes time and some degree of paying attention and thinking it through for the actual situation to become clear.

I do think that's happening though for more and more poeple.

Sometimes oppressed minorities need to be vocal to get their voices heard, versus all the anti-trans media evident in every sunday newspaper. So I do feel for them, and understand their pushback.

But I agree, most trans people I know wish simply to live their lives and fit in - and not be harassed when they go to the bathroom!

"trans" people as a category now includes large numbers of AGPs

If you look at the links posted earlier on this thread you'll see that this has always been the case (at least since the 1990s when Press for Change started). Transsexuals and transvestites have been working together for a long time. Many of the most influential TRAs are transsexuals themselves.

If transsexuals thought that the TRAs weren't speaking for them, they have had plenty of time and opportunity to say so. It's true that there are a few who have spoken out (people like Miranda Yardley), but it doesn't seem to be a majority of them who disagree. Mostly they seem to like the benefits of being 'treated as women'.

It was a transsexual going to the European Court which led to the GRA in 2004. The impact of this on women was barely considered at all when this law was passed.

But I agree, most trans people I know wish simply to live their lives and fit in - and not be harassed when they go to the bathroom!

I agree, they shouldn't be harassed if they stick to using the correct spaces for their sex and recognise that they can't change sex no matter how much surgery they have. Men really need to learn to be kinder to other males who don't look masculine.

Trans people have to recognise the effect on others of their transition if they insist that they have actually changed sex (which is impossible).

QueenPeary

I agree that there is a core of trans people who acknowledge their reality, and fight to support others. There is absolutely no disagreement with that.

However, we are led to believe by people positioning themselves as speaking for the ‘vast majority’ who tell us that no lesbians are being abused or if they are, it is a small number affected. My point is that it cannot be the vast majority as they would be actively (even if only behind the scenes) pushing back and their lobby groups would release statements saying that this behaviour is unacceptable. And there is nothing from anyone except LGB Alliance for well known organisations.

So either those speaking for this ‘vast majority’ are lying on all levels for reasons or agendas of their own, or it is the vast majority but they are unwilling to stand up against their own group and therefore they are allowing it to keep happening, or the majority actually don’t support women having sexual boundaries that excludes them.

versus all the anti-trans media evident in every sunday newspaper.

Could you please link up papers that are printing dishonest articles that are ‘anti trans’?

In the meantime Mishy, what do you think of the new outlets who not only published that the WiSpa incident was a hoax but who have not since published adequate corrections and published the truth about the person charged sex crime history (without inferring that it is all that person being harassed for being a male who identifies as a woman who ‘deserved’ to be able to have their erection out in front of six and nine year olds.)

Are you saying that those media outlets are either not reputable or are anti-child protection?

not be harassed when they go to the bathroom

I, personally, will continue to fight for women who can no longer enter that space because it is now mixed sex. My empathy lies with them. My sympathy to those males who feel they cannot use the male spaces, but now is the time to find a better solution insist of pushing females out of their spaces.

@Helleofabore

not be harassed when they go to the bathroom

I, personally, will continue to fight for women who can no longer enter that space because it is now mixed sex. My empathy lies with them. My sympathy to those males who feel they cannot use the male spaces, but now is the time to find a better solution insist of pushing females out of their spaces.

Like Fionne here... in the gents, as usual in the gents sex segregated loos.

*"trans" people as a category now includes large numbers of AGPs

If you look at the links posted earlier on this thread you'll see that this has always been the case (at least since the 1990s when Press for Change started). Transsexuals and transvestites have been working together for a long time. Many of the most influential TRAs are transsexuals themselves.*

Sorry yes, that is true. But longer ago, it was more the norm for transsexual people to agree they hadn't actually changed sex. For example even if there was a desire to "pass" and use the toilets of the desired sex, women's organisations and positions were not being infiltrated and taken over by TW for the sake of validation and pushing an ideology.

I agree being a transsexual now does not mean you can't be a TRA - not at all. But the vast majority of TRAs and trans people (depending on definitions of course) are not like the trannsexuals of old of whom there were quite small numbers. The fact that over 90% of male trans people keep their penis and are now supposed to have a "female" penis is one indication of that.

I do take your point but this is just in the context of why isn't there are big vocal group representing the majority of trans people. Because definitions have changed, bandwagons have been leapt on and the "majority of trans people" are now not the same demographic.

It also seems to include an awful lot of straight people who would rather die than be classified as hetro/straight/bo-riiiiingggggggg.

@KittenKong

It also seems to include an awful lot of straight people who would rather die than be classified as hetro/straight/bo-riiiiingggggggg.

‘Queer’ seems the be the label for that - I know people who call themselves ‘queer’ despite only ever having heterosexual relationships (not teens, I mean adults in their 30s)

I hate that. I really do.

They find it hard to explain what exactly this means, but they aren’t gay or bi... it’s all a nonsense.

Yes a person I know is "genderqueer" according to them, and this means they are "trans".

It means they don't see themselves as boringly normal and adhering to a strict gender role, and therefore are special with special rights and suffer from terrible persecution.

I am less gender-conforming than this person and have been the whole time I've known them. I'm not queer I'm just like most people - not strictly gender-conforming to a greater or lesser degree.

The stupid thing is that this undefinable, vague status that doesn't require you to be different from "normal" in any way is actually being taken seriously. You might as well just wear a badge saying "I'm special".

If this was the case - anyone who was a teen/early 20s in the 70/80s would be categorised thus...

And in other news...

The Crown Prosecution Service leaves the Stonewall Diversity Champions scheme.

"We have carried out a review of Stonewall’s Diversity Scheme and have decided to end our membership“

It is so utterly regressive. What does it take for a woman to be 'queer' or non-conforming?

Wear trousers?
Pass a driving test?
Short Back and Sides?