Conversation with dd about pro nouns, a new level of confusion

[NautaOcts]

Dd13 has been questioning her sexuality recently and talking to me quite a lot about it.
Initially she felt she was pan sexual, and then for quite a few months she has said she feels she’s bi, and came out as this to her grandparents, and put it on her WhatsApp status etc which I think was a big deal for her as people at school now know.
Last week she told me she thinks she’s a lesbian actually.
Throughout I’ve encouraged her to be herself and we’ve talked about how it can be a fluid thing and not to put yourself in a box, see what happens etc. She has not had any romantic interests that I’m aware of.
The trans thing has come up and I had sort of hoped I’d managed to just plant a seed about questioning things and thinking critically, talked about some of the concerns from some women about self ID and what it could mean etc. I thought I was doing quite well!

Then yesterday she said she thinks she’d like her pronouns to be ‘he/they’.

I’ve got to admit I was stumped.
I thought they them, he him, she her, went together. But no apparently according to dd you can mix and match????

She also said I ‘just don’t understand’ when I said that I would think that a female who wanted to be referred to as ‘he’ identified as a male?
But no apparently this is not the case. She said she doesn’t identify as male but ‘he’ and ‘they’ ‘just feel right’.

She has enough self awareness to say she’s just thinking about it and might change it when she’s new somewhere like 6th form rather than introduce it now (oh and also change her name to something neutral)

But omg I’m trying so hard but I feel like I’m in a parallel universe and I needed somewhere to say it - this pro noun stuff is such bollocks 🤦‍♀️

Should also say dd is awaiting asd assessment and can get very intense about things.

I really wish I’d banned tiktok from the off as I feel a lot of this stuff is coming from there.

"She said she doesn’t identify as male but ‘he’ and ‘they’ ‘just feel right’."

What is it with children and young people being so obsesses with pronouns?

With all of this and the idea pronouns must be respected, the actual difficulty involved for people trying to adhere to it is never tackled.

Assuming dd has not changed name and it's one used for girls having to remember and think about changing things for anyone is a massive change to get to grips with.

So in this case it would be saying things like.

Is Jane home? Can you ask him if they've remembered their pe kit, oh and remind him to bring his washing down.

Changing standard speech patterns and how you refer to those close to you is really a hard thing to do. Retraining yourself.

When I was 13 I thought boys were ewww. If the culture was as now and I was forced to give myself a sexuality I might well have chosen lesbian because I mixed with girls and liked their company, my friends (as is fairly usual) were all girls. I just wasn't 'sexual' at that age so my decision wouldn't have been based on anything relevant. I can't believe that I was different from a lot of 13 year olds now.

Don’t worry about the logic of the pronouns. Basically, there is none, and that’s a feature of gender ideology not a mistake.

I’d concentrate on supporting her and making sure she knows that whatever her sexuality turns out to be, it’s fine. Tell her that people gradually realise their sexuality sometimes and that’s ok and normal. Dissuade her from making online statements because how she feels will probably change.

Try to ask gentle questions that help her work things out for herself rather than making her defensive.

How do teachers manage with these ever fluctuating pronouns? In real life who can remember what someone likes other people to use when referring to them in their absence? I can't remember names.

@Tibtom

How do teachers manage with these ever fluctuating pronouns? In real life who can remember what someone likes other people to use when referring to them in their absence? I can't remember names.

Im an academic and we've been told to be very careful about pronouns, we have to look up all students on the online database to check and then use the appropriate one. In practice however, it's very rare we'd need a pronouns as we just use names "Simon made a good point" "Sarah, what do you think?" Etc

Im an academic and we've been told to be very careful about pronouns,

In your shoes I'd be tempted to turn ENFORCER and ruthlessly police any students who slipped up. Turn it back on them.

All this tiptoeing around the Hitler Youth is horrifying.

I'm not sure the students I teach actually care, although it's hard to guage over video calls and I don't teach a very expressive or artsy subject where I suspect you'd get more or the blue hair brigade. I think it's just central scared witless of stonewall and they think it's the thing they need to be doing. It's like most diversity iniatives, it ticks a box without really needing to get involved with the issues.

Fwiw though I did recently ask a student not to use 'they' to refer to single authors in their writing. I pointed out that de-gendering someone who identifies as he/him or she/her is just as offensive. And doing so with female researchers means that you erase women's contribution in a male dominated discipline. Surprisingly, the student 'hadnt thought about that',

@GeorgiaMcGraw

I think social media has encouraged teens to focus unhealthily on themselves and their image (as if they needed help with that). Instead of understanding their place in the world through their relationships with people and place (eg.I am my mum's daughter, she runs the house even if we argue. I am a pupil at X School, I wear the uniform and hope to get house points and compete at Sports Day. I live in this neighbourhood, and I make sure I don't litter and don't upset my neighbours), it's all about how they can dissect and label every inch of their being. Sorry for the essay, my only advice is to encourage her to have some privacy (13 year olds talking about sexuality online is NOT good) and to judge herself on what she DOES, how she treats others, not on WHO she is or might be. I hope she can find a hobby that isn't internet based too. Too much "head in a jar" thinking online.

This is such a good post. Our children are being groomed into believing that they / their identity is the centre of the universe. Regrettably it's being deliberately pushed by groups of toxic adults and perpetuated by useful idiots in our institutions who are too scared of being bullied to actually protect children from this nonsense. I hope that the majority will look back and laugh at the levels of narcissism but psychologically I fear for some of them and their futures.

I’m a teacher and I tell my pupils that I frequently call my son by my cat’s name (true) so they’ve not got a chance in hell that I’ll remember their preferred pronouns unless they wear a name badge. They can call themselves what they want in their friendship group, but they can’t expect the rest of the world to get on board with it.

In the 15 years I’ve taught in high schools I’ve only encountered 2 trans pupils. Everyone respected their new name and pronouns, myself included. But nowadays every class has a woke group as well as another group of piss-takers who identify as microwaves. It’s utter bollocks.

I tell my own daughter (13) that when we’re born we’re biologically male or female. That is a scientific fact, regardless of gender identity or preferred pronouns.

The trans lobby is stealing childhood. Also putting children and parents into impossible and stressful positions.
Solidarity OP - we love our kids but my god this is a testing time for parents.

Incidentally, I’m fairly sure my daughter is bi/lesbian and she is also on the spectrum. I know she could very easily get sucked into gender identity culture, so I try to be the voice of reason.

I talk to her about the trans-men who miss out on smear tests and mammograms, about the need for female only spaces and about the persecution of women worldwide. I’m not going to stand back and bit my tongue.

*What is it with children and young people being so obsesses with pronouns?"

I blame it all on tiktok where else would they know about such nonsense they don't even make sense . The op child wants to be known as he/they how can she I'd as a boy and nonbinary

The they part is not assuming "gender" but they want to be known as He but if they are he/they then how are people meant to know! It is all a bit look at me don't look at me why are you not looking at me.

This craze is a cult that has swept through TikTok. Gone through it with a few of our children and we just watch quietly because they change their minds daily. It’s Sudden Onset Gender Dysphoria. They are not Trans

www.psychologytoday.com/gb/blog/culture-mind-and-brain/201811/why-is-transgender-identity-the-rise-among-teens

I’m a teacher and I tell my pupils that I frequently call my son by my cat’s name (true) so they’ve not got a chance in hell that I’ll remember their preferred pronouns unless they wear a name badge. They can call themselves what they want in their friendship group, but they can’t expect the rest of the world to get on board with it.

MazzleDazzle

How I wish my daughter’s teachers had taken this approach!

Have you listened to the podcast Gender -- A Wider Lense? They have some good episodes on talking to teens about these issues. They come at it from being psychologists who've had many gender dysphoric teens as clients. Quite exploratory and non-judgmental, while coming down firmly on the side of biological sex being real. I find the episodes very interesting, lots of good guests too.

@YesIAmAGamer

My teenager says they are non-binary. They have always dressed androgynously had varied interests and never met either male or female gender stereotypes.

We try to use they/them pronouns to respect their choice but nothing else has changed. We suggested they wait until they have lived with the label in the comfort of supportive close family and friends and are happy that it fits before announcing it to the wider world. They seem happy with that so far (about 6 months now)

It seems to have given them more confidence in their choices to be themselves and not conform to stereotypes so I have no issues with that.

We also spoke about how questioning sexuality and identity (including gender) is normal and that while they can use whatever labels they want life can throw you curve balls and it tends to take time and experience for you to work out what fits. We said that we will support them but we suggest they live and grow with their choices before they make drastic changes or announcements as taking back those if they don't fit a few months down the line is often harder than making them.

Being a teenager is so hard these days. If a label helps them navigate it that's fine by me. I don't agree with making physical/medical/irreversible changes at a young age but a label can easily be adjusted.

@YesIAmAGamer I really like this approach and think it is just the kind of watchful, respectful support that teens need.

Can I quote the Safe Schools Alliance again? I'm sure that the OP knows this, but for anyone else reading this thread:

Social affirmation can lead to a gender identity becoming embedded which in turn will increase the risk that the young person will seek medical transition in the future. Evidence suggests that 80% of children will desist if supported by “watchful waiting”.

Their website is good safeschoolsallianceuk.net/

13 is so young to be "coming out" as anything and trying on labels and pronouns.

Theres tremendous pressure to come out as something, and the insinuation is that if you don't come out, you're living a lie. I've spoken with young girls on Tumblr about this, and said that it's absolutely fine to not tell anyone of you think you're a lesbian, for example. It's not something you need to do, at any age. You don't owe it to anyone.
In some cases girls and young women are making themselves sick with worry. Even if a 13 year old is a lesbian (and tbh although I knew at that age, not everyone else would) there is no point in singling oneself out for possible homophobia, including from one's family and at school.
But the narrative is very much "say it or it doesn't count" and "say it or you're letting the side down".
A 13 year old doesn't need to tell anyone anything about herself. She certainly doesn't need to be making big announcements on social media. Who are they for?
And why are we normalising children talking about their sexualities? Never mind gender identity, why would anyone need to know who a child might theoretically be attracted to?

Are girls really that boxed in by the uber-feminisation of young womanhood that they need to be a "they" to escape from endless demands to acquiesce and apply eighteen layers of contouring muck on their face? Do girls have to be lesbian to escape having to send naked selfies to boys in their class?

It's fucking scary and I feel terrible for girls and young women nowadays.

Just to labour the point slightly - the only people who are hypocritical for not coming out are those closeted homosexuals and bisexuals who actively attack LGB people. Like male politicians passing homophobic laws then getting caught with a prostituted man. Nobody else has to come out, ever. Not if they don't want to. And certainly not at thirteen years old.

I smile and nod, but good god, it is hard. And the fact schools are pandering to this nonsense and giving it the same level of recognition and respect as, say, race or disability, is absolutely maddening.

Working in a school is pretty maddening as well.

Safeguarding tells us breast ironing = abuse, but breast binding = absolutely fine

Literally everything is: Don't question anything, or they/them will kill themselves (quoting Stonewall)

The same type of men objecting to pronouns objected to Ms. when it was suggested

"Why can you not be just married or single?"

same ol' same ol'

So..... I've just spent the last hour on bloody tiktok trying to wrap my head around this because DD(11) bestie is having a sleepover this weekend and she/them now identifies as a demiboy (having previously been fluid or something) but she looks like a girl and AFAIK she is still fine with she or them.

At first I thought... is this the 2020s version of the good ol' tomboy? But DD is more of a tomboy than her friend, so I thought I'd go see what they're all seeing.

I knew it was bad and nonsensical but this is another level of toxic. I've been watching an it (yes, an it) who is a demiboy which is a person who mostly identifies as a boy but expresses themselves anyway they like (I think?!)

Apparently not only is there sex and gender there is now two genders: the identity and the expression.

So, let me get this straight, the older, demiboy videos of the it I was watching appear to be: a biological teen girl, who identifies as a demiboy, who expresses itself wearing a tight underbust corset, long hair, and makeup (can we call that feminine?)

At some point the preferred pronoun changed to he OR it but the appearance didn't change. Still looking and sounding 100% girl.

I don't understand but I was kind of following along because she/he/it was making videos to reply to commenters -- accusing 'it/he' of actually hurting the trans community (specifically transmen) by demanding the pronoun but purposely expressing 'itself' in a typically ultra feminine way. It looks like a massive troll, basically.

As Contrapoints says: Bad Optics

Which (while I don't agree with most of what CP says) is a very valid point. Do they want to be taken seriously and at least semi-understood? Optics play a big part.

But apparently no, the overwhelming consensus is that pronouns are just things you want to be called and may or MAY NOT match your identity or your expression.

IS YOUR BRAIN ABOUT TO EXPLODE YET?

Well. The more recent I get in the feed the more I learn. At some point, the pronoun changed to glitch, and then (i think) it was changed to spider but I can't work out if that's a pronoun or some kind of split identity?? Also can't work out if split identity is like identifying your way into SPD? It/spider also has tics, ADHD, eating disorder, various videos of complete breakdowns on there which is due to PTSD and anxiety, and a bunch of other shit I've not even looked at yet. It's upsetting and she needs serious, serious help and I have to wonder about her parents.

And I found all this by searching "demiboy" and scrolling through the first few results.

Myself and my daughter have ADHD and everyone in that community has noticed the massive influx of self-diagnosed 'this video on tiktok said ADHD is forgetting your keys and I forget my keys too!' type posts. It's all worrying, but that part worries me very personally because it's pretty debilitating (understatement) and already has quite an eye-rolly reputation from people who don't get it. Everyone is a little ADHD and all that.

It's like every single possible way to be different is catching and spreading like wildfire.

So I am still none the wiser on DDs demiboy friend but what's working for me is just letting her think of me the way I thought, at 12, about my 87yo unpolitically correct great-Nana.

So until now we've got on great, she knows I think it's a nonsense and I know she thinks I'm a dinosaur (she's said so -- I'm in my twenties but I guess it's all about ageist expression?) and we just pretend this isn't happening.

Time will tell if the dawning of this new identity changes that balance I guess.