Conversation with dd about pro nouns, a new level of confusion

[NautaOcts]

Dd13 has been questioning her sexuality recently and talking to me quite a lot about it.
Initially she felt she was pan sexual, and then for quite a few months she has said she feels she’s bi, and came out as this to her grandparents, and put it on her WhatsApp status etc which I think was a big deal for her as people at school now know.
Last week she told me she thinks she’s a lesbian actually.
Throughout I’ve encouraged her to be herself and we’ve talked about how it can be a fluid thing and not to put yourself in a box, see what happens etc. She has not had any romantic interests that I’m aware of.
The trans thing has come up and I had sort of hoped I’d managed to just plant a seed about questioning things and thinking critically, talked about some of the concerns from some women about self ID and what it could mean etc. I thought I was doing quite well!

Then yesterday she said she thinks she’d like her pronouns to be ‘he/they’.

I’ve got to admit I was stumped.
I thought they them, he him, she her, went together. But no apparently according to dd you can mix and match????

She also said I ‘just don’t understand’ when I said that I would think that a female who wanted to be referred to as ‘he’ identified as a male?
But no apparently this is not the case. She said she doesn’t identify as male but ‘he’ and ‘they’ ‘just feel right’.

She has enough self awareness to say she’s just thinking about it and might change it when she’s new somewhere like 6th form rather than introduce it now (oh and also change her name to something neutral)

But omg I’m trying so hard but I feel like I’m in a parallel universe and I needed somewhere to say it - this pro noun stuff is such bollocks 🤦‍♀️

Should also say dd is awaiting asd assessment and can get very intense about things.

I really wish I’d banned tiktok from the off as I feel a lot of this stuff is coming from there.

@Palsy

But it’s nice to get it off my chest since I feel like I can’t tell her exactly what I really think!

She's only 13. You actually can tell her exactly what you think, because you're her parent.

Allowing or encouraging pubescent girls to speculate about their sexuality on the internet is all part of the revolting grooming culture that genderwoo is alllllll about.

No I do understand what you’re saying And I’m not going along with some alternate reality, or at least am trying not to. I have lines in the sand about what is true. I guess I meant I was thinking ‘this is a load of bollocks’ and I don’t think saying that to her would be very helpful. I want to keep lines of communication open and for her to keep talking to me about these things and I will gently challenge.

@GeorgiaMcGraw

I think social media has encouraged teens to focus unhealthily on themselves and their image (as if they needed help with that). Instead of understanding their place in the world through their relationships with people and place (eg.I am my mum's daughter, she runs the house even if we argue. I am a pupil at X School, I wear the uniform and hope to get house points and compete at Sports Day. I live in this neighbourhood, and I make sure I don't litter and don't upset my neighbours), it's all about how they can dissect and label every inch of their being. Sorry for the essay, my only advice is to encourage her to have some privacy (13 year olds talking about sexuality online is NOT good) and to judge herself on what she DOES, how she treats others, not on WHO she is or might be. I hope she can find a hobby that isn't internet based too. Too much "head in a jar" thinking online.

I agree with all this. I do think all of this obsession with pronouns and multiple gender choices is a manifestation of hyper individualism. I do hope it passes!

Just at a really low level I don’t want her to cringe in future. She already says she regrets coming out as bi (a month ago) as now she considers herself gay
Could you suggest this experiences perhaps suggests that it is better not to label oneself but just wait and keep living and experiencing?

Because all this stuff is taken so seriously and yes there is actually such a thing as being "he/they" and every other daft combination, kids are in a position where it's hard for them to even see what makes sense. Because teachers aren't allowed to say "that makes no sense" and loads of organisations are leaping on the bandwagon and pretending just making up a random identity makes you into a special category of person. It's no wonder 13yos feel they have to "decide" what they are out of a whole pile of silly labels.

All my DDs friends are at it too, and it's very much seen as fashionable and cool to have all your labels in place - they are 11! I'm a bit less delicate though, at least to my own DC. I say it makes no sense to me and I'll believe it when someone can explain it :) I also say, you are 11. I hope you know you don't have to decide any such thing. If you want to change your mind anytime, you can. I think it's important to not surround them with praise and encouragement because that could make them feel they can't back out. My DC know I have lots of objections to it all and while I can't control what they think, I hope it at least opens their minds to realise not everyone agrees.

@LittleBearPad P Couldn't agree more, I think this is really dangerous nonsense teachers are indoctrinating our kids with today.

My son came home from school at the age of 8 asking questions about being asexual and non binary.

He's 8, he should be asking me if Ironman could beat Wolverine in a fight.

[quote CBUK2K2]@LittleBearPad P Couldn't agree more, I think this is really dangerous nonsense teachers are indoctrinating our kids with today.

My son came home from school at the age of 8 asking questions about being asexual and non binary.

He's 8, he should be asking me if Ironman could beat Wolverine in a fight.[/quote]
Completely agree with you, and in what world is it appropriate for an adult to tell an 8 year old about people having sex or not having sex? What a weird thing! It's not like saying "some kids have a family with 2 mummies, it's ok to be different". It's making them think about sexual pleasure or lack thereof in an adult's life. So creepy. I always used to support sex ed in school, but if this is what teachers are talking about, I might well change my mind. Also, Wolverine would win, he keeps regenerating and his adamantium claws would destroy Iron Man's suits.

I hope that in a few years time when my children are young adults we're back to free love and no labels. This level of navel gazing isn't healthy - not a criticism of op's dd, lots are doing it.

Just tell her it’s sex based and you don’t get to mix n match. Lord above, some things in like ‘just are’...

Just go along with whatever he/she/they/it/zim/zey want. You'll only be labelled transphobic if you don't, and vilified for the rest of your born days.

Allowing or encouraging pubescent girls to speculate about their sexuality on the internet is all part of the revolting grooming culture

I'm glad I'm not the only one who thinks this, I am starting to feel like I'm crazy because so many people think it's just great.

I would just go along with her being far too young to be worrying about her sexuality, unless she particularly wants to die after a 24 hour labour before she’s 14. I’m relieved to see a few other hard-headed comments. Sometimes a bit of reality is important to keeping lines of communication open: perhaps show her what’s going on in Afghanistan and ask her how important identities are there.

We have been through exactly this. Firstly, it will change, and it will change a lot BUT how it does is up to you. Be very careful of where she is getting her information from, and keep internet usage low and make sure you know what she is seeing. Secondly, keep challenging her beliefs in a gentle way - we had discussions about whether JK Rowling was actually anti-trans, all this kind of thing.

Finally, there is a support group called Bayswater who I found really helpful. Google them, they will give you so much help.

I think actually, it is okay to point out it’s a load of bollocks. I think many of them don’t actually want to engage with this crap but no one is giving them a way out.

But then a) I am a middle aged women so obviously my opinion is null and void for a teenager and b) I don’t have a teenager yet!

He/they just means they would be comfortable being referred to as he/him/his and also as they/them/theirs.

I am not trans but I suppose my pronouns would be she/they are I don't mind people using either set for me.

8 yo are mostly going to be asexual, in my experience! How on earth are they going to grasp fully the nuances of adult sexual attraction, preferences and practices and who in their right mind thought they needed to be taught all about it?

I think I would have had nightmares if I'd been told about adult sexuality in all its diversity when I was 8.

And you know what? I feel sorry for the teachers who are obliged to stand up in front of children who know and trust them, whose spelling mistakes they shake their heads over, whose lunch boxes and plimsolls they hunt and whose corny jokes and riddles they kindly laugh at and introduce them to all this confusing and inappropriate stuff when they're still dithering over letting go of their belief in the tooth fairy and Father Christmas.

It's disturbing what's being asked of teachers.

I told my daughter to find out who she was and let me know i would love her regardless

I also think it's a load of nonsense, but that identity politics paved the path for it. Similarly, it often feels like the trans lobby stole the feminist rulebook and used it against them (not so much rad fems but all the intersectionality stuff).

It seems that many of the youth think that adding loads of classifications to themselves actually makes them more interesting, when in fact they're less adventurous and break less rules than the youth of a few decades ago.

I smile and nod, but good god, it is hard. And the fact schools are pandering to this nonsense and giving it the same level of recognition and respect as, say, race or disability, is absolutely maddening.

Lots of made up pronouns in DD's year (and her school is no longer allowed to do anything Harry Potter themed, because self obsessed teens protested).
There is so much navel gazing, it's not really healthy, teachers are expected to go along with all this.
But what really pisses me off is DD gets so anxious about her clothes and looks, she is big boobed and boys at school comment constantly, they also rate girls on slimness and looks, and harass them generally. This isn't tackled at all, yet so much energy is put into pandering to gender.

But what really pisses me off is DD gets so anxious about her clothes and looks, she is big boobed and boys at school comment constantly, they also rate girls on slimness and looks, and harass them generally. This isn't tackled at all, yet so much energy is put into pandering to gender

If this whole gender craze was started by girls who wanted to be boys and women who wanted to be men and there were only a few males identifying as females, it would not have got off the ground and those girls would either be treated as having MH issues or ridiculed or both. It is only because of traditional male dominance in a patriarchal society that it has gained popular attention and sympathy.

But what really pisses me off is DD gets so anxious about her clothes and looks, she is big boobed and boys at school comment constantly, they also rate girls on slimness and looks, and harass them generally. This isn't tackled at all, yet so much energy is put into pandering to gender.

YES, exactly!

I became a governor at my DC's secondary school last year. One of the recurring items on the agenda is a report on safeguarding incidents and bullying incidents. I raised the question about what was being done specifically to monitor and address sexual harassment (it was particularly timely as #everyonesinvited was in the news) and was proudly told that there had been no incidents .

It was a Teams meeting so hopefully they all got to see my incredulous face. The fact that sexual harassment is not even being recognised, let alone tackled effectively, is shameful.

Yet we had a long-winded wittering on from the head about how the whole teaching staff was being 'educated' in how avoid referring to students as boys and girls ever to avoid upsetting the non-binary students. What boils my piss is that for years feminists have slowly and painfully campaigned for removing unnecessary and unjustified gender-based differentiation in schools, yet they are literally falling over themselves now to pander to this bullshit.

Becaus it’s easier to tackle non events rather than actual, real events.

If you want to play at fairytales, don’t work in professions.

Might have been said already. Apologies if repetition.

I had it wokesplained to me that he/they means either he/him or they/them are acceptable to the person.

Thoughtfully giving the person who's language and perception you are controlling some thoughtful flexibility of expression perhaps or making yourself just a little bit more interesting than boring run of the mill hims and thems.

@Theunamedcat

I told my daughter to find out who she was and let me know i would love her regardless

Identity is ego driven, it is persona not soul. If all the girls identifying as non binary were really expressing their true self, why aren't similar numbers of mums also discovering their true self retrospectively? Also an assumption crept in there. Love her unconditionally doesn't mean agreeing and being complicit with her every changing whim. She is developing. You are her parent, who she IS and will become is parenting. Don't let her peers parent her.

@SusannaM

I smile and nod, but good god, it is hard. And the fact schools are pandering to this nonsense and giving it the same level of recognition and respect as, say, race or disability, is absolutely maddening.

Lots of made up pronouns in DD's year (and her school is no longer allowed to do anything Harry Potter themed, because self obsessed teens protested).
There is so much navel gazing, it's not really healthy, teachers are expected to go along with all this.
But what really pisses me off is DD gets so anxious about her clothes and looks, she is big boobed and boys at school comment constantly, they also rate girls on slimness and looks, and harass them generally. This isn't tackled at all, yet so much energy is put into pandering to gender.

The overlap between girls who want to identify as something else and those who have big boobs is quite high, and not often remarked upon. I've seen a couple of threads about trans/non binary girls which have turned into bra recommendation sessions.

That last paragraph is, for me, at the heart of at least some of this. Teenage girls have spent 12+ years being told that they are the equal of boys and suddenly they discover that - because they are a girl - they are not. Instead they are observed, they are taunted, they are objectified. Who wouldn't want to get out of that box?

And the big-boobed (I speak from experience here as someone who took 20 years to recover from being a DD teenager in a mixed school) get it worse than anyone. So no wonder they want to be something else.

@cheeseismydownfall That wouldn't be acceptable if the subject were bullying. Why don't you suggest you get a focus group of older girls together and ask what their normal looks like?

@Palsy

But it’s nice to get it off my chest since I feel like I can’t tell her exactly what I really think!

She's only 13. You actually can tell her exactly what you think, because you're her parent.

Allowing or encouraging pubescent girls to speculate about their sexuality on the internet is all part of the revolting grooming culture that genderwoo is alllllll about.

Completely agree. Speak your mind and stand your ground. One day she'll thank you for it.