Another toilets one

[nowwhat50]

I've NC for obvious reasons. I think it's time to come out as GC at work.

Our Diversity and Inclusion policy makes no mention of Sex whatsoever. I've mentioned this to HR already, that they appear to have forgotten about sex as a protected characteristic, but not put it in writing. I got no response to my verbal comments, just a "oh really?"

We now have a new member of staff who is very obviously MtF trans. This isn't really a Trans issue as such, but my concern is the Equality Act. I have 3 different protected characteristics.

My workplace has a very recent history of not paying women the same as men for the same role. All new hires in to the same brand new team, the only female was paid £5k less than the lowest paid male.

They also have a very mixed history of supporting disabilities, removing adjustments without notice and making disabled employees fight for months to have those adjustments returned.

Homophobic and racist complaints where clear evidence of homophobia and racism have resulted in soft warnings rather than Gross Misconduct. I know this because I conducted the investigations and gathered the evidence on these complaints.

So my biggest concern in not where this new member of staff goes to pee, but holding my employer to account. The Equality Act is not optional, they can't pick and choose which bits to follow and I want to make that clear. I really didn't want to choose toilets as the hill I die on at work, but think this is what I'm going to have to do.

Can I have some advice please on how best to approach this? To assert my rights to single sex spaces and make this about the importance of adhering to The Equality Act, rather than making it about not wanting to share the toilets with a Trans person. TIA

My workplace also had ‘gender’ instead of sex on their HR website. I simply emailed them and pointed out that ‘sex’ is protected not ‘gender’. This isn’t me coming out as GC, it’s me telling them to quote and understand the EA. Just email them!

Agree with above and the way I’d approach it is request that a unisex/gender neutral bathroom be added in if possible. Say you have a women’s and men’s on each floor of a 3 storey building. Remodel the bathrooms on the 1st floor to be gender neutral/unisex (no urinals, all cubicles with full height walls). Then those that want the women’s only have at maximum to go up or down one floor to access them, and those that want unisex/gender neutral only have at maximum to go up or down one floor to access them.
(Assuming you have a lift for disabled).

Anyway the reason I say this is because you’d be creating a unisex space that a trans individual is more likely to use. They’d be more likely to go to those bathrooms than the women’s or men’s.

@PlanDeRaccordement unfortunately that isn't possible. We are across multiple floors in a tenanted building, the landlord is responsible for the toilets and any remodelling. But it's up to HR to enforce those on our floors as single sex rather than mixed. They are the usual set up of multiple cubicles with open hand basins, so definitely can't qualify as legit gender neutral.

There is one disabled toilet on each floor that has a radar key lock, so we'd have to ask people who don't want to use the toilets matching their sex to get a radar key and use those. It's a bit of a faff really and I can't see it going down well with our soft and woke HR team.

Oh too bad. It worked for us but we own our buildings and it wasn’t too much money for them to remodel the bathrooms on every other floor.

Hope you find a solution!

If they can't be remodelled then absolutely they can be re labelled and re designated, by blue tack and a sheet of A4 paper if that's all that can be managed and afforded. But yes, there should absolutely be a unisex/gender neutral option available for all employees who need an alternative to their sex based provision, and sex based provision for female employees who need it. Male employees may want sex based too and that should be checked. Equality and inclusion (and all nine characteristics) catered for.

Are you a member of a union? I know the common view is that all unions are quite captured by the ideology but you have the law on your side and, particularly with your company's previous approach to pay and disability, I think you have some very valid points to make that a union would get behind.
I would also put your concerns in an email so they are official and in writing. Make it clear in your email that is why you are putting them in writing, because you'll take them further if they're ignored.
If you are in a union you could cc in the union. But I would make it about the EA rather then your protected GC beliefs, if I were you. At least at first.
Once you know exactly where your HR & Union stand, you can decide where to go from there.

@Changemusthappen

My workplace also had ‘gender’ instead of sex on their HR website. I simply emailed them and pointed out that ‘sex’ is protected not ‘gender’. This isn’t me coming out as GC, it’s me telling them to quote and understand the EA. Just email them!

I wrote to our HR and legal compliance teams pointing out that they’d misrepresented the EA2010 by including gender and omitting sex. I also said it was important legally as anyone bringing a discrimination case against on my employer would rely on the EA protected characteristics. I got a patronising “beeeeeee kind” pat on the head email that said they wouldn’t correct their E&D materials, hinted at my need for reeducation. It was at that point I knew my organisation was not only captured but knew & didn’t care. Wankers. I’m leaving soon to work in another sector.

If its possible to email from another name I've done that. I emailed my employer asking whether an Equality Impact Assessment had been done on a gender neutral toilet which suddenly appeared as a women's toilet converted solely by laminated sign . It's easier to do where it's things like webpages that the public can see.

In recent training ours listed ‘sex and sexuality’ as one category (as if having sex was the protected thing) but I was so pleased they used sex I didn’t want to push my luck.

I’ve raised stuff before which she obviously didn’t really read as the reply was that they would never mix up sex and gender while linking an article that mixed up sex and gender.

Can you go to a HR or legal team rather than the inclusion team?

@BettyFilous, that's a shame and I can see that it's difficult. I work for a government department and have to quote the EA as part of my work. I would not have backed down on this. Interestingly we have a new head of inclusiviity starting soon so we'll see what happens!

I also emailed HR about misquoting the EA; they apologised, said they'd correct it and thanked me but why does it take a minion like me to point something out to a huge corporation????‽??? 🤔

Thanks for all the replies. Our HR team is a very small team of 3, with a legal hotline they use for advice. This is why there are so many screw ups and unfairness within the organisation. We are a sub division of a very large international but work in isolation from the main org, so no opportunity to reach out further than that. Everyone else is offshore and a lot of our policies are badly worded translations by someone who doesn't have English as a first language.

Im in a union but found them very unhelpful and unable to provide advice quickly enough. Took 3 weeks for them to answer a question about how long is reasonable to wait for reasonable adjustments for disability to be restored once taken away. Absolute waste of space, but I keep paying so that I have them if it all goes pear shaped.

I think I will start with an email asking them to address the Diversity policy and include sex, some questions around the recording of sex or gender for the gender pay gap data etc. Then address toilets.

Or do I need to address the toilets urgently? And register that it's unacceptable now so they don't say "well this person has been using the ladies without complaints for 2 months now..." Is that even a defence? The new member of staff is in training and so on a different floor to everyone else right now and only known to a few who are training them at the moment.

I would start with the diversity policy.

Re the toilets, I think you can raise this with them but base it on your rights under the EA using sex, disability, religion - anything you can. You could quote 'legitimate aim'?

assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/85009/business-summary.pdf

@Changemusthappen

My workplace also had ‘gender’ instead of sex on their HR website. I simply emailed them and pointed out that ‘sex’ is protected not ‘gender’. This isn’t me coming out as GC, it’s me telling them to quote and understand the EA. Just email them!

I did the same, they are in the process of correcting all documents to reflect the EA.

Employers could be in trouble if faced with a sex discrimination case when not actually including sex as a PC in their employment policies and materials. It certainly wouldn't make their defence any stronger. It's in their best interests to follow U.K. law.

[quote nowwhat50]@PlanDeRaccordement unfortunately that isn't possible. We are across multiple floors in a tenanted building, the landlord is responsible for the toilets and any remodelling. But it's up to HR to enforce those on our floors as single sex rather than mixed. They are the usual set up of multiple cubicles with open hand basins, so definitely can't qualify as legit gender neutral.

There is one disabled toilet on each floor that has a radar key lock, so we'd have to ask people who don't want to use the toilets matching their sex to get a radar key and use those. It's a bit of a faff really and I can't see it going down well with our soft and woke HR team. [/quote]
Is a bit of a faff??? For one person? I don't think so. That person can very easily ask for the key. How much would you say it's a faff if it was a disabled person having to ask for the key?!

There are several religions that women have to cover their hair in front of males, including MtF trans, so we definitely need single sex bathrooms. Not even mentioning other reasons.

AFAIK see, the real problem is that there is a law which is not being upheld or enforced.
It doesn't seem possible to challenge a breach of equality law unless you are directly and seriously affected, and can raise £30,000 upwards to take it to court.

There was a consultation that accepted this was a problem in its findings, nothing has been done about it.
Equal rights for women are not priority for this government.

You have to prove to your employer that this person cannot use the women’s bathroom as a service. While the EA 2010 protects Sex, it also protects gender identity. And bathrooms fall under this.

The EA 2010 act won’t allow an exclusion based on YOUR discomfort of using a bathroom with a trans person for single sex spaces. That’s not how the law works I’m afraid.

However if your employer IS actively discriminating someone based on disability already then THEY need to show why they can make this exclusion - and I don’t think that’ll stand up on their end which is why I’m glad the adjustments have seemed to be made as they probably couldn’t prove why they excluded these people.

Access to women only spaces is only permissible if its a space where you would not normally expect to be in a state of undress, and even then only after a GRC has been issued.

(6)The condition is that—
(a)the service is provided for, or is likely to be used by, two or more persons at the same time, and
(b)the circumstances are such that a person of one sex might reasonably object to the presence of a person of the opposite sex.
www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2010/15/schedule/3/part/7/crossheading/singlesex-services

@Thelnebriati

AFAIK see, the real problem is that there is a law which is not being upheld or enforced. It doesn't seem possible to challenge a breach of equality law unless you are directly and seriously affected, and can raise £30,000 upwards to take it to court.

There was a consultation that accepted this was a problem in its findings, nothing has been done about it.
Equal rights for women are not priority for this government.

This.

I think you might struggle to demonstrate your need for single-sex toilets in this instance because the law doesn’t state that single sex is a requirement. EQ2010 only allows your company to exclude this person from the women’s toilets if they can demonstrate that it’s a “proportionate means of achieving a legitimate aim.”

Unless they agree with you that retaining single sex provision is a legitimate aim (and they may not, if they consider there to be no additional risk to women, or presume nobody will object) then there’s no requirement for them to do so. Unfortunately if you do want them to exclude that person, it may be necessary for you to demonstrate why you need that single sex space, which might be something you are unwilling to do, or don’t want to do for whatever reason. I realise it shouldn’t be necessary, but I think it’s a demonstration of why the law doesn’t really work, particularly in the current climate, where the rights of males undergoing gender reassignment tend to be given priority over the rights of women.

I hope I’m wrong in my understanding of the law, but I don’t think I am.

You can certainly object to the lack of the word “sex” in your diversity and inclusion policy. If they are deeply into Stonewall territory, that might alert them to the fact that they have someone in their employ who is likely to want to hold them to account, which might be positive (as well as the obvious potential negatives). But you’ve already given a very viable reason why sex should be in there, given the previously recorded pay gap.

@Thelnebriati

Access to women only spaces is only permissible if its a space where you would not normally expect to be in a state of undress, and even then only after a GRC has been issued.

A bathroom! Are the stalls completely closed?

Also for a religious woman who has to cover her hair, she expects to be able to fix her headgear or wet her hair (for religious washing) in the sink in the bathroom

Personal experience: before my first job interview I accidentally spilled coffee all over my white shirt and tried to wash it in the bathroom. So yes I was undressed. A woman came in, and that ok. But I would have screamed if a trans person had come in, tbh

I would tread carefully on the toilet issue, as it may be seen as targeting a particular colleague. It would not be well-received at my work and may be seen as petty/discriminatory. As stated above, the EA does not give the right to single sex spaces, but I think there are workplace regulations that state that separate men’s and women’s toilet should be provided.

Although GC, I don’t have a problem with the one known FTM colleague using the women’s bathroom. And frankly, I’d rather that, than changing all the bathrooms to unisex.

Not having sex as a protected characteristic is important. Sex discrimination and the pay gap are still important, and distinct from gender identity. You may have a better chance of success of suggesting that both sex and gender reassignement/identity are protected.

@RoastChicory

I would tread carefully on the toilet issue, as it may be seen as targeting a particular colleague. It would not be well-received at my work and may be seen as petty/discriminatory. As stated above, the EA does not give the right to single sex spaces, but I think there are workplace regulations that state that separate men’s and women’s toilet should be provided.

Although GC, I don’t have a problem with the one known FTM colleague using the women’s bathroom. And frankly, I’d rather that, than changing all the bathrooms to unisex.

Not having sex as a protected characteristic is important. Sex discrimination and the pay gap are still important, and distinct from gender identity. You may have a better chance of success of suggesting that both sex and gender reassignement/identity are protected.

Turning all women's single sex provisions into ones that include male people is discriminatory, as those provisions then exclude women who cannot use mixed sex spaces.

They are entitled to as much inclusion and consideration as TW. Employees can have no way of knowing which of their female employees may be affected, or who they may employ that then finds they have no toilet access. Nor should those female employees be forced to explain and disclose and run the gauntlet of women who personally have no barriers and lack the wider knowledge to understand that not all women are as lucky as they are.

The obvious answer, as above, is that some women's (or mens) facilities become allocated as mixed sex, and others remain allocated as single sex, so that everyone continues to have their needs met. Which would be actual inclusion and not discriminate against anyone. And requires the equal valuing of female people and their sex based needs and male people and their gender based needs.

If its just one member of staff at the moment maybe you or HR could approach her and explain the need for the other women to keep their single sex spaces.
Perhaps a loo could be re assigned as mixed on her floor ?

Of course it would depend on her attitude but a compromise might be found at least in the short term.

@RoastChicory erhhhmmmmm a MTF using the woman's bathroom (if everyone knows they are trans) is a different situation to a MTF using the woman's bathroom....... (Read previous post on the issues of religious women needing to use a women only bathroom)