We don't get upset when people misgender our LO's so why is there such a huge drama about adults?

[Peppapigforlife]

Well maybe some people do get upset when people misgender (or mis-sex, or however you want to say it) their child, but I'm sure the majority of us reasonably minded parents brush it off.
If my little girl isn't wearing pink most people assume she is a boy, but I don't get upset about it. It's just one of those things.

Yet I'm going to a ticketed event soon where the organisers have announced (long after the tickets were all sold) that we must refer to every single one of the 2k other people as 'they', until we know for definite, the gender of the person. Why does everyone have to make such a big deal out of these things for adults? It's the first time I'm going somewhere social without kids in two years and I feel like I'm stepping into a very childish world compared to the parent world.

How exactly do they plan to enforce this nonsense? Circulating spies with recording devices? Throwing ticket holders out for using the words she or he?
Are you sure it isn’t a joke by the organisers to demonstrate the stupidity of gender woo?
Personally, as an autistic pedant, I would be unable to bring myself to refer to a single person as “they”. Nor would I attend an event under such conditions - I would ask for a refund.

Why does everyone have to make such a big deal out of these things for adults?

Compelled speech is one of the major ways in which transactivists try to achieve general acceptance and normalization of trans ideology.

When we ‘misgender’ someone – using the ‘wrong’ pronouns – we re-assert reality and break the genderwoo spell.

I don't know if they can enforce it, but there is a lot of confusion on the FB group with people saying they don't want to break the rules, so I guess people will go along with it and it will be really awkward.
I think it would be hard to get a refund because they're quite a difficult company to deal with.

The people saying they don't want to break the rules thing calls to mind a podcast I've just listened to with Ayaan Hirsi Ali interviewing Helen Joyce. It was a great podcast and worth listening to - posted a link here. But what struck me is this comment:

"Most people don't think very about hard things, most people are not very brave, and most people don't give a damn about women" I may have slightly misquoted it, as this from memory.

For me, it illustrates what you are saying @Peppapigforlife

There was a thread a while back when we all talked about the times we'd been called 'Sir', and many of them were amusing. But its not a hate incident to mistakenly call a woman 'Sir', so no one takes any notice.

I am a fairly butch woman who drives a truck. I don't get offended when I'm misgendered either. It's compelled speech. Manipulative nonsense.

I think the problem occurs when this small facet of your whole seems to become you whole. If your identity is the only thing you base your existence on then some not validating essentially your entire existence might feel difficult.

It's a lot easier to be meh if you have a more balanced sense of self (and a lot healthier IMO)

"Most people don't think very about hard things, most people are not very brave, and most people don't give a damn about women" I may have slightly misquoted it, as this from memory.

That is a very apt quote. It very much explains how we got here.

@howard97A

Why does everyone have to make such a big deal out of these things for adults?

Compelled speech is one of the major ways in which transactivists try to achieve general acceptance and normalization of trans ideology.

When we ‘misgender’ someone – using the ‘wrong’ pronouns – we re-assert reality and break the genderwoo spell.

I agree. Compelled lies is more the term I think.

If a man (for clarity I mean someone for who the midwife said "it's a boy!" when he was born) declares himself to be a woman and refers to himself as "she" and "her" that person is actually misgendering themselves.

A male person (again, midwife "it's a boy!") is of the male sex. Male sexed people and animals are "he". Sex cannot change in humans - ever.

If that person gets a Gender Recognition Certificate and changes his birth certificate and all other documents to "FEMALE" then he will be considered to be female "in the eyes of the law" (i.e is not ACTUALLY female, just treated as such for legal purposes).

Ok anyone else want the soap box?

Because it's about trying to make people say the opposite thing to what they can see.

Babies are tricky to sex on sight unless you're changing their nappy.
Children are very often tricky to sex too - people are usually using sex stereotypes which is why my 10yr old DS who likes his hair long is nearly always referred to as a girl from behind.

Humans have evolved to be able to accurately sex adults nearly all the time & when we get it wrong it's usually corrected as soon as the person speaks or moves (extra data for our clever brains).

The people who want to pretend they are the other sex dislike that the truth is usually so obvious to us.

The event sounds a bit bonkers & if alcohol is involved at all there is no way that most people will have the capacity to fight a lifetime of using pronouns correctly!

Most people want to get along, don't they. Not rock the apple cart. I have been surprised over the pandemic the extent to which it's true where I live. People here are laid back which I value, but they simply seem to have accepted even some quite serious restrictions and such without any real discussion of comment, or bringing up the question how it fits in with basic rights, or when it would be going too far. Things like the local government not sitting so all decisions are being made by the leadership.

There is something to the idea that a quiet "temporary" removing of rights under the guise of getting along is much more effective than an outright attempt has something to it. I've actually become somewhat sympathetic to the more outspoken Americans about these things as a result, which isn't really in line with my temperment.

@Gibbonsgibbonsgibbons

Because it's about trying to make people say the opposite thing to what they can see.

Babies are tricky to sex on sight unless you're changing their nappy.
Children are very often tricky to sex too - people are usually using sex stereotypes which is why my 10yr old DS who likes his hair long is nearly always referred to as a girl from behind.

Humans have evolved to be able to accurately sex adults nearly all the time & when we get it wrong it's usually corrected as soon as the person speaks or moves (extra data for our clever brains).

The people who want to pretend they are the other sex dislike that the truth is usually so obvious to us.

The event sounds a bit bonkers & if alcohol is involved at all there is no way that most people will have the capacity to fight a lifetime of using pronouns correctly!

All the trans folk that I know don't believe that they are the other sex. That's a bit of a lie. They believe that they're the other gender, assuming that their identity lies on the assumed gender binary.

Trans people are usually hyper aware that they aren't the sex that their gender is typically assumed to be. No trans woman thinks that they have XX chromosomes, nor do trans men believe that they have XY.

Additionally, misgendering people on accident; completely okay! Most trans people believe in self-identification, sure, but they also believe in gender performativity theory, which is that you are the gender that you perform daily, and if you misread their gender while drunk or unknowing, there's nothing to be ashamed of there.

The problem arises when you make a point of misgendering them repeatedly. This is demonstrably harmful, and even if you don't believe in their identity - which is fine, I can't make you believe in a philosophy that you haven't been convinced on - rejecting trans identity doubles their chance of suicide.

This study shows that the risk factor for suicdality literally doubles if they are rejected in different parts of their life. 6.3% -> 13.4% in rejection of their identity in employment/school/healthcare/housing. 5.1% -> 10.5% in cases of familial rejection. 6.3% -> 13.1% in cases of religion.

This one is an international study that... well, the results section of the study says it better than I could.
"Gender-based victimization, discrimination, bullying, violence, being rejected by the family, friends, and community; harassment by intimate partner, family members, police and public; discrimination and ill treatment at health-care system are the major risk factors that influence the suicidal behavior among transgender persons."
I will note that this has to do with discrimination, and not just rejecting their gender identity like you are. I'm not implying that you discriminate against them, it's just a case that every little helps, and acceptance is much more poignant than apathy, and being apathetic of their identity can come across as hateful to trans people who deal with discriminatory people daily.

If you would like me to explain why I believe that trans people's identities are 'valid', or would like to know anything else. Do ask! Inquiry is the soul of knowledge ^^ .

Because children are not viewed as full persons in culture and law.
Child murder is the easiest murder to get away with
Children have no individual rights, those belong to their parents.
Children can’t even change their names

So it’s not a good comparison to use children to argue adult people should not get upset over misgendering.

That said. Some people are just extra sensitive and and really I think it’s always an overreaction to be upset if misgendered unless it is repeatedly and deliberately by someone who knows your gender/pronouns.

@PlanDeRaccordement

Because children are not viewed as full persons in culture and law. Child murder is the easiest murder to get away with Children have no individual rights, those belong to their parents. Children can’t even change their names

So it’s not a good comparison to use children to argue adult people should not get upset over misgendering.

That said. Some people are just extra sensitive and and really I think it’s always an overreaction to be upset if misgendered unless it is repeatedly and deliberately by someone who knows your gender/pronouns.

I am a bit confused, it seems like youre shadowboxing is. English isn't my first language though, so if you could reiterate I'd be mighty grateful

@fillywonk

What is shadowboxing? English isn’t my first language either. Not sure how to reword it, but was addressing the OP’s question:
We don't get upset when people misgender our LO's so why is there such a huge drama about adults?

The reason why there is drama with adults and not children is because children are not full persons. That said, there is still too much drama when adults are misgendered.

I have a typically male professional role and a unisex name. I get misgendered via email about twice a week.

Still alive here!

[quote PlanDeRaccordement]@fillywonk

What is shadowboxing? English isn’t my first language either. Not sure how to reword it, but was addressing the OP’s question:
We don't get upset when people misgender our LO's so why is there such a huge drama about adults?

The reason why there is drama with adults and not children is because children are not full persons. That said, there is still too much drama when adults are misgendered.[/quote]
Ah I see. Shadowboxing is a term wherein you are unknowingly debating a point your opponent didn't make by the way.

And to answer your question or rather the OPs, it is equally bad when a trans child is misgendered than when a trans adult is misgendered, it is just, as some people have said, that it is easier to misgender a child in good faith than it is an adult. Children are more androgynous, and hormones don't affect growth until around puberty, so boys and girls, apart from the bits between their legs, are physically indistinguishable apart from societal constructs of their gender such as girls growing out their hair and wearing dresses, for example.

But misgendering children in bad faith does have equally disastrous consequences nonetheless.

@NothingIsWrong

Glad you're cool with that, but your anecdote pales in comparison to the wealth of data on the issue of how misgendering doubles suicidality in trans people. As in This study

@fillywonk
Yes agree it is equally bad to misgender child as it is an adult.
Absolutely. (Although you have diverged into secondary sex characteristics moreso than gender in your examples.)

OP asked why is there less drama when it happens to children? And my answer to that is because children are not viewed as full persons, whereas adults are. So, yes people will think it’s less important to get gender right with a child than an adult, although they should be of equal importance.

I was at an clothing-optional event recently when a man asked me to draw a tree on his leg using body paint pens.
I’m an obliging person, so was happy to do so.
He was wearing colourful leg warmers and some other pink items. Mainly he was nude. Didn’t think much of it his accessories, as it was an event with a carnival feel.
As I was kneeling, drawing, he felt the need to tell me how he felt as a ‘non-binary person’.

I remember thinking - your cock is a few inches from my face - you don’t seem very non-binary to me, just a man wearing colourful accessories to a fun event.

The whole gender identity thing is nonsense.

The problem arises when you make a point of misgendering them repeatedly. This is demonstrably harmful, and even if you don't believe in their identity - which is fine, I can't make you believe in a philosophy that you haven't been convinced on - rejecting trans identity doubles their chance of suicide.

People who are so fragile they kill themselves when other people refuse to play along with their delusions need therapy.

Threatening suicide and insisting that other people must be forced to tell lies, thereby undermining their own mental health is unreasonable, and a sign of a disordered personality.

The people threatening to kill themselves need to take responsibility for their own health and wellbeing. Get therapy and learn to live in the real world. Just like the rest of us have to do.

Plenty of us have our own mental and physical health challenges, and more than enough shit in our own lives to be getting on with. It's time the cry bullies stopped trying to manipulate us and diverted their energies to fixing their own problems.

Well said stealth

@fillyjonk I have read the executive summary and searched thd full report, and there is no mention of misgendering as increasing suicide risk. Do you mean the bit about those who say they aren't seen to be transgender have a lower risk of suicide?

Is there any research on the feedback loop of being constantly told that being transgender increases your suicide risk, increasing suicide risk?

Agreed stealth

When did 'if people don't agree with the way I see things and give me what I want I will have to kill myself or it's their fault' become a valid way to dictate how other people, who have their own equally valid needs, must live?

I am so sorry for anyone who feels their life isn't worth living, for any reason, but that strongly suggests they need help to change their own situation, not enforce unwarranted change on others.

@fillywonk You may be speaking about the trans people you know and of course I cannot comment on that.

But a casual glance at Twitter will demonstrate that many think to the contrary and believe they are, in fact, of the female sex. Literally.