I found this slightly reassuring - re girls IDing as boys

[QueenPeary]

Until recently despite engaging in the gender debate a lot and having a VERY full-on TRA family member, I hadn't had much direct experience of trans-IDing children.

But recently 2 of my DD's female classmates (year 6), one a close friend, have started IDing as boys, have boys names etc and this is being embraced by the school. My DD knows my GC views and we discuss it, but I have agreed to be respectful in using the right names etc (though I avoid using he pronouns).

Anyway - what I found reassuring is that both have discussed it with my DD and said they know they are not actually boys, and are not interested in taking drugs or having a penis. So despite the school being captured and going along with the full TWAW/TMAM etc, the kids (sometimes) aren't. They seem to realise it's an identity to try on, akin to a fashion or music tribe, and so maybe - I hope - there's a way in which girls (and maybe boys too) can go through this without it having to involve the long-term risks to their health.

I still don't think they are a "he" and I don't think it's going down a very healthy or feminist path to ID as a boy instead of just being a girl of whatever type you want to be. But I am kind of heartened that maybe this trend could default back to something more akin to good old 80s "gender bending" and away from the idea of actually changing sex.

Of course many kids still are at risk of both harmful medicalisation and anti-science ideology and I'm not minimising that – but wondered what people thought.

by choosing to live as the opposite sex.

The thing is, it is not possible to "live as" the opposite sex.

Either you are a sex, or you are not that sex. For a man to "live as" a woman, for example, does not mean living the way I, a woman, live day to day:

• wearing jeans and t-shirts and having short hair
• dealing with pregnancies, births, BFing and periods (pre-menopause)
• knowing I am at a physical disadvantage when interacting with men and feeling that apprehension
• doing whatever I like in terms of "gendered" activities and behaviour, whether anyone perceives them as masculine, feminine or neither.

No, to "live as" a woman, a man will generally perform and imitate stereotyped sexist feminine tropes of the kind that actively harm and suppress women. Which I, woman, do not feel bound by.

That is nothing to do with being a woman. He has not become a woman. If he wanted to wear a dress and make up because he just likes them and knows he is a man, that would be far better and healthier for everyone. For us all to be expected to say he's a woman because he does these things is wrong and bloody insulting to boot.

They are not actually a woman, they are actually a transwoman.

I agree. And as they are not actually a woman, they are actually a man ( as they are the only two sexes available).

So what, apart from the lipstick and dress, makes a trans person feel like a woman? How do they know what women feel like?

Indeed. This is never answered, just the assertion that we need to take their word for it that they do. No, that isn't how it works.

They wear lipstick performatively to make themselves more representative of what society considers to be female.

Well surely only the most regressive and backward and unthinking fraction of society? because I sure as hell don't think wearing lipstick is what makes me female?

Why would anyone believe they literally change sex?

Isn't there someone here saying that sex is "malleable"?

That's just semantics though? Are we really going around saying to transwomen in real life, you're not actually a woman, you're a trans woman?

Are we asking trans women to clarify in general life, that they're trans women and not women?

I'm so confused about why this is such a thing! Constantly forcing the conversation to, trans women are men, and trans men are women, is misgendering which is unnecessary and really hurtful. I don't understand why there are people dedicating so much time to being deliberately hurtful. What is the end goal here?

@Ereshkigalangcleg well that person is silly.

@HexedBoogie

We've been trying to tell you this all along: that kids should be free to experiment with gender, and that there's no harm whatsoever with letting them use the label and pronouns they want.

No! We need to STOP talking about gender altogether

If someone wants to change sex (as in transsexual) and feels uncomfortable within their primary and secondary sexual characteristics, sure! See a professional and go for it

But if a girl doesn't want to wear makeup or wants to wear what we tend to call "boy's clothes" then she is free to do that and viceversa!

Jiiii how many people still said that engineering was a man's field in the 21st century if my daughters act more energetic, people comment that they're like boys. Why????!!!! They're kids! Regardless of sex!

Again it's a huge misconception that trans people walk around thinking they are biologically the opposite gender

Gender is a social construct. I think you mean sex.

This all comes from linguistics. Gender is just a category system. The choice of masculine, feminine and neuter to denote linguistic gender was arbitary. It could just as easily have been black and white or feline and canine or whatever.

As you learn in basic French, the fact that the table is masculine does not mean the table is male.

well that person is silly.

Glad you agree.

This is it. It's all a lie. A lie based on telling people that what they know and experience as their sex, should be replaced by some stereotypes that define their "gender" - which actually is then apparently supposed to mean the same thing as sex, because it means men can claim access to women's same-sex spaces and so on.

What assertion? How is someone else supposed to prove how they feel? Is there an objective way I can prove I love my children? It's a feeling, like sexuality. How does one prove their sexuality? Performatively.

It doesn't actually matter how non trans people view a trans persons views on their own identity. The same way it's non of my business if you are gay.

That's just semantics though? Are we really going around saying to transwomen in real life, you're not actually a woman, you're a trans woman?

Are we asking trans women to clarify in general life, that they're trans women and not women?

I don't see why this is so unreasonable. They're not actually women, because they are male. Happy to accept them as a special class of male. It's not kindness to lie to people.

Do you think "designated toilets" occur in biology? That sex-segregated spaces, in and of themselves, are anything but a part of society's gender norms?

Now this one is a good question and it's worth unpicking.

They are indeed a part of society's gender norms, but not because society just capriciously decided sometimes we would separate people by their physical sex.

Leaving aside those that exist entirely due to physical differences (sports, contraception, maternity leave, different toilet types, clothing shapes and sizes), women-only spaces, rights, protections and opportunities reflect society's gender norms to the extent that they were put in place to mitigate the social gender norms that allowed male-bodied people to physically, spatially, socially, culturally and politically overpower female-bodied people.

They are a reaction not a cause.

And those male-benefitting gender norms were not themselves one thing but the combination of physical power, historic laws that explicitly disempowered female people, cultural norms that associated male voices with more knowledge, trust and authority than female, socialisation of males to compete and females to defer, imagery of females as passive prizes and plot devices and males as subjects and agents, and so on.

So absolutely, I would welcome a future where female-only provision is no longer needed because the old, sex-aligned social gender norms that they protect us from have genuinely gone away. That, after all, is what Gender Critical Feminism is working towards. And if that's what your vision of a gender-norm free future is the same we should be gladly holding hands and marching towards it together side by side.

But if your vision of a gender-norm free future is simply to ignore the historic and ongoing disempowerment of female people, dismantle all single sex protections in order to make them a multi-sex validation of self-defined of gender identity, and through that somehow all those pre-existing sex-based gender norms that disadvantage female people and made single-sex provision necessary in the first place will magically go away without you ever having to tackle the difficult and real underlying problem of how males (of any gender identity) feel entitled to treat females.... no thank you.

It doesn't actually matter how non trans people view a trans persons views on their own identity.

On an individual level, as long as they stay out of spaces which are female only, fine. On a societal level, no thank you.

That's just semantics though? Are we really going around saying to transwomen in real life, you're not actually a woman, you're a trans woman?

Generally no. When it matters (eg prisons, sport) yes.

Are we asking trans women to clarify in general life, that they're trans women and not women?

See above. When sex matters people people need to be honest. When it doesn't matter, it doesn't matter.

Constantly forcing the conversation to, trans women are men, and trans men are women, is misgendering which is unnecessary and really hurtful. I don't understand why there are people dedicating so much time to being deliberately hurtful. What is the end goal here?

The end goal is to maintain hard fought for women's rights, protections and spaces.

I don't think that saying trans men are biologically female is the gotcha you think it is.

People can and do identify as transgender. Saying you don't "believe in it" is kind of locking the gate after the horse has bolted.

Plenty of TRAs assert that you can change sex.

What does TWAW mean otherwise?

There are two sexes: men and women. If you're not a woman then you're a man.

Transwomen/men should be free to dress and live etc. however they like but they should not be allowed in single sex areas that are there to protect women. We should also not be forced to accept that a man literally becomes a woman just because he says he is a woman.

@TheFairPrincess

That's just semantics though? Are we really going around saying to transwomen in real life, you're not actually a woman, you're a trans woman?

Are we asking trans women to clarify in general life, that they're trans women and not women?

I'm so confused about why this is such a thing! Constantly forcing the conversation to, trans women are men, and trans men are women, is misgendering which is unnecessary and really hurtful. I don't understand why there are people dedicating so much time to being deliberately hurtful. What is the end goal here?

Because women need some spaces, resources, language left to them that is specific to the female experience and sex based needs.

If it was a case of just politely not mentioning it and everyone would respect boundaries and let female needs be met too, there would be no problem. Women are being forced to the discourtesy of pointing out, no transwomen and women are not the same thing, and no inclusion of male sexed people is not always possible in all situations without excluding some female people from having any resources or services at all.

Women did not start this. Women have given a hell of a lot of ground on this. And yes, it is necessary at this point for women to be very clear that sex matters and sex based needs matter for women. That this hurts the feelings of people from the political movement that is hurting them? We have women unable to go into refuges. Lesbian groups gone underground. Women who are living with serial sexual offenders in prisons being raped and assaulted by them.

It cannot always and exclusively be about female people protecting male people's feelings when there is no reciprocation or care towards female feelings.

Does misgendering trans men and women defend women's rights?!

But if your vision of a gender-norm free future is simply to ignore the historic and ongoing disempowerment of female people, dismantle all single sex protections in order to make them a multi-sex validation of self-defined of gender identity, and through that somehow all those pre-existing sex-based gender norms that disadvantage female people and made single-sex provision necessary in the first place will magically go away without you ever having to tackle the difficult and real underlying problem of how males (of any gender identity) feel entitled to treat females.... no thank you.

It's not any kind of feminism I recognise, certainly.

The problem isn't that I don't think males should dress in ways they perceive as feminine, the problem is that if we don't 100% agree they are now women and should be able to access female-only spaces (hospital wards, prisons, toilets, etc) then we are the bigots/nazis/ transphobes.

Do you believe transwomen should be able to access all and every female-only space? No exceptions?

I don't think that saying trans men are biologically female is the gotcha you think it is.

We're not looking for a "gotcha", we're just stating the truth.

It is the combined effect of the two propositions:

1. Transwomen are women.
2. Anyone who says they are trans is trans.

A bright eight year old could spot the potential problem there.